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Are you a fan of double action only?
- Thread starter FLHTC
- Start date
I love the options of DA or cocked and locked that comes along with my HK USP45...it just works for me and with training, I don't have a "worry" about disengaging the safety in a crisis.
not a fan personaly, I love my sig DA/SA and 1911's but never realy liked the M&P/Glock, probably more the strikers fault then anything, feels gritty to me even after wear in/trigger job.
Hate them. I bought a M&P 9mm and quickly sold it. Easily the worst trigger ever! My department just switched to a Sig DAK. Second only to the M&P for worst trigger ever.
I prefer my S&W revolvers. Smooth, light double action and crisp, super-light single actions.
I prefer my S&W revolvers. Smooth, light double action and crisp, super-light single actions.
J
Jose
Amazing what Smith & Wesson was able to achieve 113 years ago.
My Thoughts for what they're worth
My carry guns are mostly DAO.
DA/SA Pistols:
While Double Action/Single Action pistols are generally great, there is one thing that has always bothered me about them. Your first shot, often the most important, has a different trigger pull, in both length and weight. Also, most people tend to train most with these weapons in Single Action. They build up great form and muscle memory to the single action trigger, then throw the first round in a threat situation.
-- If your an exception to this, great. I do have a DA/SA handgun, and I intentionally reset the hammer between sets in an attempt to train for the varied trigger. I still have more spread in a double tap with a DA/SA than a DAO
SA Pistols:
Single action pistols are great for target shooting, a light, short, crisp trigger pull really helps accuracy, but walking around cocked and locked means putting absolute faith in a mechanical safety, and training to drop the safety during a draw.
The later you have control over, Practice, Practice, Practice. The second you have some control over (quality parts, careful maintain, routine replacement of worn parts prior to failure) but I'm an engineer. Mechanical systems can and do fail. I do still, however, occationally carry a cocked and locked Single Action pistol. I'm more concious of carrying it than I am my DAO pistols.
DAO Revolver:
I have one of these as well. The internal hammer design reduces snag points, but the 9lbs trigger is smooth, but both long and heavy. One good thing about the trigger, it builds up finger strength and endurance and slows rate of fire, which is useful when you only have 5 rounds per reload.
SA Revolver:
The only one I know currently is a blackpowder pistol. I wouldn't carry it for self-defense unless I had no other options (like the fact that you don't need a pistol permit in NH to carry a patch & ball revolver concealled)
While these are the classic "carry" guns of the 1800s, even if I had a SAA (would love to) I wouldn't carry it for self defense. Having to draw the hammer back just slows things down too much in an emergency.
DA/SA Revolver:
I have one of these too. It's too big for comfortable concealled carry. It's for hunting and target shooting. The DA trigger is around 11lbs and rarely used. The single action trigger is in the 3lbs range and much nicer. In an emergency, most people are going to use one of these pistols as a DAO pistol because they're not going to work the hammer between each shot, and if they do pull that hammer back as they draw (like a single action revolver) they again have a gun that has a different trigger pull on the first shot, though at least that single action trigger is lighter and likely what they practice with the most at the range, so hopefully it's the most accurate.
Now, with DAO pistols, every squeeze of the trigger is exactly the same, even if not the best, its consistant. That helps you develop better muscle memory for better aim in a stressful situation. The safety is typically built into a long, heavy trigger pull, but it's one you have much more control over and a little less to worry about than a cocked and locked single action.
I've used 3 different styles of DAO pistols as well:
Single Strike DAO pistols (like Glocks) have a medium trigger length and weight, but rely on a partially cockec firing pin. If the firing pin is released, the trigger alone can't cycle the action, the slide must be cycled to reset the striker.
Multi Strike DAO pistols (like NAA Guardians) have a much heavier trigger pull as the trigger cycles the firing mechanism completely, allowing the user to pull the trigger and attempt a second primer strike on a failure to fire without racking the slide.
Re-Strike DAO pistols (I don't remember which model had this, but I've used at least on) normally function from a partially cocked firing mechanism and share a medium weight trigger pull with single strike DOA pistols, however in the case of a failure to fire, the trigger can engage the firing mechanism from it's fired position and reset it. This increases both length and weight of the trigger pull, but allows a restrike on a failure to fire, where single strike DAO pistols do not.
Are they great target pistols? No, but they can hit a pie-plate at 7 yards, which is the goal of a self-defense carry pistol.
My carry guns are mostly DAO.
DA/SA Pistols:
While Double Action/Single Action pistols are generally great, there is one thing that has always bothered me about them. Your first shot, often the most important, has a different trigger pull, in both length and weight. Also, most people tend to train most with these weapons in Single Action. They build up great form and muscle memory to the single action trigger, then throw the first round in a threat situation.
-- If your an exception to this, great. I do have a DA/SA handgun, and I intentionally reset the hammer between sets in an attempt to train for the varied trigger. I still have more spread in a double tap with a DA/SA than a DAO
SA Pistols:
Single action pistols are great for target shooting, a light, short, crisp trigger pull really helps accuracy, but walking around cocked and locked means putting absolute faith in a mechanical safety, and training to drop the safety during a draw.
The later you have control over, Practice, Practice, Practice. The second you have some control over (quality parts, careful maintain, routine replacement of worn parts prior to failure) but I'm an engineer. Mechanical systems can and do fail. I do still, however, occationally carry a cocked and locked Single Action pistol. I'm more concious of carrying it than I am my DAO pistols.
DAO Revolver:
I have one of these as well. The internal hammer design reduces snag points, but the 9lbs trigger is smooth, but both long and heavy. One good thing about the trigger, it builds up finger strength and endurance and slows rate of fire, which is useful when you only have 5 rounds per reload.
SA Revolver:
The only one I know currently is a blackpowder pistol. I wouldn't carry it for self-defense unless I had no other options (like the fact that you don't need a pistol permit in NH to carry a patch & ball revolver concealled)
While these are the classic "carry" guns of the 1800s, even if I had a SAA (would love to) I wouldn't carry it for self defense. Having to draw the hammer back just slows things down too much in an emergency.
DA/SA Revolver:
I have one of these too. It's too big for comfortable concealled carry. It's for hunting and target shooting. The DA trigger is around 11lbs and rarely used. The single action trigger is in the 3lbs range and much nicer. In an emergency, most people are going to use one of these pistols as a DAO pistol because they're not going to work the hammer between each shot, and if they do pull that hammer back as they draw (like a single action revolver) they again have a gun that has a different trigger pull on the first shot, though at least that single action trigger is lighter and likely what they practice with the most at the range, so hopefully it's the most accurate.
Now, with DAO pistols, every squeeze of the trigger is exactly the same, even if not the best, its consistant. That helps you develop better muscle memory for better aim in a stressful situation. The safety is typically built into a long, heavy trigger pull, but it's one you have much more control over and a little less to worry about than a cocked and locked single action.
I've used 3 different styles of DAO pistols as well:
Single Strike DAO pistols (like Glocks) have a medium trigger length and weight, but rely on a partially cockec firing pin. If the firing pin is released, the trigger alone can't cycle the action, the slide must be cycled to reset the striker.
Multi Strike DAO pistols (like NAA Guardians) have a much heavier trigger pull as the trigger cycles the firing mechanism completely, allowing the user to pull the trigger and attempt a second primer strike on a failure to fire without racking the slide.
Re-Strike DAO pistols (I don't remember which model had this, but I've used at least on) normally function from a partially cocked firing mechanism and share a medium weight trigger pull with single strike DOA pistols, however in the case of a failure to fire, the trigger can engage the firing mechanism from it's fired position and reset it. This increases both length and weight of the trigger pull, but allows a restrike on a failure to fire, where single strike DAO pistols do not.
Are they great target pistols? No, but they can hit a pie-plate at 7 yards, which is the goal of a self-defense carry pistol.
113 years ago a 12lbs gritty trigger might have been state of the art, but today to get that out of the PC, shows that they maybe top of the heap, but when its a heap of crap, it doesn't really matter
J
Jose
None of my S&Ws has a 12 lb, gritty trigger. Maybe you need to try a few more.
I've shot a bunch and owned a few, as with the M&P, they all need trigger work. With a little work they become acceptable. With a lot of work, they can be great, just like the M&P. My 627 trigger pull is now only slightly heavier than my M&P
The SA 1911 style pistols are perfectly suitable for carry. Some people don't like seeing the hammer cocked and if that worries them then probably they shouldn't carry one.
These firearms are just as safe as or safer than a TDA or DAO. TDA and DAO pistols depend on their double action’s long-hard pull for safety.
The M1911 has four safeties:
1. Grip Safety
2. Thumb Safety
3. Half Cock Notch
4. Firing pin safety
Cocked and locked might look scary to some people but there is nothing to worry about if you understand how the gun operates.
I can't seem to find the firing pin safety on my 1911
Some 1911 have them, some do not
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It is argued that true 1911's don't. I like Colts that do not have them, and I like when other 1911's do have them. That is because I like the Colts for collecting and recreation, and I like the S&Ws for defense.
J
Jose
Revolvers were never meant to have 5 lb DA pulls, that's a gamer's invention.![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
5Lbs? Why would I run my revolver with that heavy of a pull
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
its the gamers that are willing to push the limits that evolve the weapons
J
Jose
5Lbs? Why would I run my revolver with that heavy of a pull
its the gamers that are willing to push the limits that evolve the weapons
Uh huh.....
Nu uh....
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True. And I won't buy one that isn't a pre 80s. Just as a matter of personal taste. However, I think the new repro 70s series Colts including the WWI model is true to the old design. If I were to have the desire to buy a new 1911 it would be one of the two models in a heartbeat. Those look fantastic.
I have seen those on line and I too would love to have one or both. All of the Colt reproductions are nice.
You must live in a free state. Dealers here in MA are not allowed to sell us new Colts. Our masters will not allow it.
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Series 80 Colts (and ParaOrdnance and Sig 1911s) also have a firing pin safety. Even if the nose of the sear breaks off, the gun won't discharge because the firing pin safety will prevent it from moving. If you are an engineer and you are familiar with the Series 80 style safety, then you would know this.
S&W and Kimber Series II have a Swartz-style firing pin safety. While it works differently than a Series 80 style safety, it has the same effect -- if the sear nose breaks off and the hammer falls, the gun won't go off.
If a Series 70 style gun without a firing pin safety scares you (I'm an engineer and they don't scare me, but whatever floats your boat), there are other 1911s with firing pin safeties. And if they still bother you, there are plenty of other fine guns with other action types to choose from.
While I was a skeptic about Series 80 guns, the trigger job that Santurri did on my Delta Elite convinced me that you can actually get a decent trigger on a Series 80 gun.
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I don't live in a free state. Just a freeER state than MA. When I lived in MA, all I could think of was how many Colts I was going to buy when I moved out. Then, I moved out, realized I was broke, and still haven't bought anything. Guess that is how it goes until I can figure out a way to earn some more dough.
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