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AR15's - Who makes the best ones and why?

sLpFhaWK said:
i actually read the thread yes. i seen the chart too but people have had good experiences with them and i like the idea of a local shop who hands out a warranty with every rifle they build. im not a rich man so i cant afford a $3,000 rifle from an expensive company even if its made from the best parts. its going to be a range gun thats it. im not going to compete with it or anything serious like that. i have my budget and hopefully i can get exactly what i want within that budget. it doesnt need to be stamped colt to be reliable. if i buy it and its a POS then you live and learn, and ive always learned the hard way.

people get so caught up with brand names that they forget the same people who make parts for colt and bcm etc also make parts that arent stamped with that logo and are made the same exact way and are just as reliable for 25% cheaper sometimes more. who do u think makes those walgreens AA batteries? prolly duracell (i dont really know just guessing) but you see my point.

as always thanks for the input but some of you people really need to relax.
Click to expand...

You know what the problem is every other week some kid gets the AR bug and has to have one and instead of searching the other 15 topics on the subject asks "what AR should i get". The other annoying trait you so perfectly demonstrated is when you get advice from people who actually own multiple rifles for years on end and shoot the snot out of them we get the "Well you know so and so makes these rifles for X and they are 25% cheaper and i'm just going to go with them". Well if you knew you were going to buy a brand of gun in the first place why did you bother to ask?

Do we need to relax, maybe.

Do you see my point that this shit gets old fast?
 
I still don't know what brand I am going to go with. Like I said in my previous post is that I'm going to check them out and go from there. Trust me I'd love to just get a colt or a DD and be done with it.

But you are correct there is a ton of these types of threads already and it does get old quick. Believe me when I say I'm picking up what you pros are putting down but my analogy of AA batteries wasn't the best lol but good quality machined parts are produced you just have to find them. How else would companies get popular if someone never took the risk and didn't try out spikes or BCM etc.
 
sLpFhaWK said:
I still don't know what brand I am going to go with. Like I said in my previous post is that I'm going to check them out and go from there. Trust me I'd love to just get a colt or a DD and be done with it.
Click to expand...

Do you know what you are looking for in terms of quality? Or are you just going to look at their stuff and let them tell you about their product? Working in retail in multiple settings as well as guns and cars, I will say this. "The best product made just so happens to be right over here."
 
Moderator said:
Do you know what you are looking for in terms of quality? Or are you just going to look at their stuff and let them tell you about their product? Working in retail in multiple settings as well as guns and cars, I will say this. "The best product made just so happens to be right over here."
Click to expand...

Nailed it! Why would a shop order you a sweet DD when they can sell you a bushmaster that is right here on the shelf for $50 cheaper.
 
If you do not know what brand you are going to go with than I suggest you start by narrowing down what level of quality you are going with or at least a price point. Asking what it the best AR is like asking what it the best sports car. Some will say Ferrari/ Lamborghini / Porsche but if all you have is 2k then you should ask which sports car for 2K is the best.

Also be truthful with yourself. What do you intend to do with it. If it is casual plinking then that will be one thing. If you plan on 3 gun or similar competition shooting then that is something different. There is no never fail AR available it is mechanical it will fail. The question is when and how. The higher you go on "the list" the less you chance of failure.

Lowers are made by a few companies:

Lewis Machine & Tool
•LMT
•Lauer
•DS Arms
•PWA
•Eagle
•Armalite
•Knights Armament
•Barrett

Continental Machine Tool
•Stag
•Rock River Arms
•High Standard
•Noveske
•Century (New)
•Global Tactical
•CLE
•S&W
•MGI
•Wilson Tactical
•Grenadier Precision
•Colt

LAR Manufacturing
•LAR
•Bushmaster
•Ameetec
•DPMS
•CMMG
•Double Star
•Fulton Armory
•Spike's Tactical

JVP
•Double Star
•LRB
•Charles Daly

This does not however indicate that all these lowers are the same. They may be made on the same tooling but not necessarily with the same materials. The tolerances held and the quality of the tooling used will vary from machine shop to machine shop. The components going into these are likely not the same either. It takes longer to fit and prepare parts properly on any firearm than to just throw in whatever you have in front of you.

If you are honest with yourself it will help to narrow your choices.
 
jaymce said:
Lowers are made by a few companies:
Click to expand...

You should note that forged lowers are made by a few companies. There are now a lot of billet machined lowers from companies like Mega, Larue, Sundevil and others. In some cases these might be subcontracted though I tend to doubt it in most cases.

I've also heard people report that at least some (like the Larue and Mega) tend to have really good tolerances.
 
PaulD said:
You should note that forged lowers are made by a few companies. There are now a lot of billet machined lowers from companies like Mega, Larue, Sundevil and others. In some cases these might be subcontracted though I tend to doubt it in most cases.

I've also heard people report that at least some (like the Larue and Mega) tend to have really good tolerances.
Click to expand...

You are correct that most of the forgings themselves are done by 1, or 2 companies, but that does not mean that the lowers themselves are that way. Those companies that do the forgings do not machine, and finish them. That is where most of the differences happen. All of the lowers start life as a rough forged slug, with the exception of the billet ones, which start out as a block of aluminum. The individual companies do their own machining, and finish treatments (or sub those out to be done by their specs/standards). In most cases with lowers, though, it boils down to whose rollmark you like the looks of the best.[wink]
 
Dream to Dream said:
And that's what happens when a "What AR should I get?" thread is started by a mod, and not some kid with a post count of 7.
Click to expand...

I know what kind of AR to get, I want others to get the same info. My problem was reading that too many people think that some of the AR's that they own are quality, but in the end they just spent too much on a name. If I hear how RRA is the best one more time, I'm going to explode. My goal was to point out what exactly makes a quality AR a quality AR.
 
Hey, don't discount this offering from Mattel.

m-16-marauder-b-mattel.jpg.gif
 
Moderator said:
I know what kind of AR to get, I want others to get the same info. My problem was reading that too many people think that some of the AR's that they own are quality, but in the end they just spent too much on a name. If I hear how RRA is the best one more time, I'm going to explode. My goal was to point out what exactly makes a quality AR a quality AR.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I assumed you weren't asking for your benefit. But a mod starting a thread also makes folks more willing to put some real effort into their posts. They know you aren't some wet-behind-the-ears tacticool wannabe. [wink]

Thanks for starting this thread. I've been chewing over the idea of starting an AR build or saving up for a complete one, and this will make a great reference point in the future when I finally stop dragging my feet.
 
Moderator said:
I know what kind of AR to get, I want others to get the same info. My problem was reading that too many people think that some of the AR's that they own are quality, but in the end they just spent too much on a name. If I hear how RRA is the best one more time, I'm going to explode. My goal was to point out what exactly makes a quality AR a quality AR.
Click to expand...

There's been some very useful info here. Good thread IMO.
 
this is an awsome thread. i am going to look at a few different options for my next build.

*however - IMO*

HSLD vs. off the shelf:


i am NOT rich. so i will try and balance the quality of the gun and parts vs. my cash flow.

Zombie Gun: DPMS Carbine... it's almost 2k rounds w / o a cleaning (again)... crap ammo too! it is my "go too" gun because i know i will never need more than 5 or 6 mags loaded with 29 rounds to survive the hollywood firefight. i have less than $2k into this gun... aimpoint, single point sling... it came with the knights armament rail sys. i had the leaf blower comp swaped for a YHM phantom. i love this gun, everyone who knows me will tell you how much i love my IALZK [laugh]

Service Rifle / Old School: NES lower / White Oak upper... same... i love this gun. shooting it off-hand @ 100 yards or running 9 hole with it. total cost was less than $1k

i did those two builds as closely as i could to the Military M4 or M16 A2 - same. not too many bells and whistles.... for the most part WILL function with minimal TLC.

what's my point? the "average" shooter should be able to balance cost vs. quality and build a nice gun for less than $2k. whether it's a build or off the shelf. i get a woodie looking at LaRue, Novesake uppers too! i just have a hard time spending $1800 on an upper because someone claims that the Special Forces uses it. [laugh]

lots of toolbags on the AR platform have NEVER even served in the military / LE so they have no clue what their talking about....

*my next build will be a HSLD one because i am insecure and want to fit in. j/k, i want to splurge just because.... meanwhile doing 90% of my plinking with my M&P 15-22
 
I find it hard to get excited over many of the features that are considered best/must have. My purpose in owning a rifle is not to shoot 6,000 round endurance tests into a sand pit and I don't sleep better at night because my barrel has park underneath the FSB.

Just sayin.

B
 
Supermoto said:
And just as many toolbags that have been in the military that have no clue what they are talking about also
Click to expand...

roger.

let me clarify. if you run 5k rounds / per day then you should probably care... otherwise, just keep it simple,.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"This has been one of the most informative AR threads, though."

-JR
Moderator said:
That's what my goal was. [wink]
Click to expand...


I kind of missed what you were going with here I guess.

That does not negate my answers but perhaps "How to choose the best AR for you" should have been the title. In that case here is what my thought process was, and I think what will yield the best results for someone trying to wade through the AR swamp.

Step 1)

Determine what the intended use will be. Do not lie to yourself in this area. Not being truthful with yourself will lead to a higher cost in the end. If you are looking to build a race / ultra-high end AR, with tight 200yd groups, and un-paralleled repeatability, then off the shelf Olympic arms is not going to fill the bill.

Step 2)

Determine what your budget is. This will lead to conflict with step one. If you want a sub MOA 200 yd AR you are not going to do that on a tight budget. When doing this you will have to take all factors into account. Building a rifle can be fun but if you fail to lay out all the parts needed right out of the gate, you will find any budget eaten up quickly. Also stick to the plan otherwise the budget can go wrong real quick. If you budget for a 50$ stock and then go with a 150$ stock realize what this will do the budget. Do not forget the little things, BUIS can be expensive if you want a good set. These little changes add up quickly. Plus do not forget to add in the tools required. If you are only going to build one AR that tool investment needs to be taken into consideration.

Step 3)

Determine what your level of failure rate or tinkering you are willing to put up with. If you are using the gun for casual plinking and it fails you pack it up and go home for the day. If you just spent 100s of $ on a carbine class or for lodging at a 3 gun competition then the 50$ you saved to get the cheapest bolt will pale in comparison to the $s lost going home the first day after your gun fails.

Once you have determined use, budget and failure rate then use "The List" if you are looking into a production gun. If looking for a high end custom the list will be of little use to you. Do your homework here. I found the cost of stepping out of the 2nd tier guns into the bottom of the 1st tier guns not to be that much in the grand scheme of things. I also had specific features and parts in mind for the build I wanted so that leads me in a particular direction. I also found that once I took into account upgrades that I would want then the 2nd tier guns were the same price as the completed 1st tier guns.

What quickly became apparent to me is that if you want a 3rd tier gun then you get an off brand/no name gun with questionable hit or miss reliability. The assembly can be hit or miss as well. You might get a guy who can put together a lower and does it well but you are just as likely to get a guy who is slapping the parts together and hoping it will work out for the end user. While one guy buys one and said it works great the next guy will say he had nothing but problems until he sold it and was happy to see it gone. Chances are that if you plan on buying a 3rd tier gun with the plans of building it up over time you will be better off buying a stripped lower and receiver as most of the parts you are paying for will end up in the trash anyway and the Upper and lower you end up with as a base may be of questionable quality. From a machieists point of view these guns are probably made off of parts that are at the very edges of the acceptable specifications for the parts used.

2nd tier guns are good guns. Most are well made and have a low failure rate but are have been known to fail under extreme conditions. These are great for the average shooter. Some are probably used by law enforcement. They are good guns at a good price. They represent a good value. Using the chart may allow you to improve these guns by inspecting them for proper assembly, checking to see if the bolt is staked for example.

1st tier guns are the top of the line. They will have the lowest failure rate and highest quality parts. They will more than likely be assembled by and for shops that hold to a higher quality in parts and assembly. Some of the top tier guns are priced just over the 2nd tier but most tend to be the higher $ semi-custom rifles. Some manufacturers here supply the military and law enforcement communities. Others are geared to the compeition shooter.

In my opinion there is no "Best AR" any time that is asked it becomes a pissing match between tier one vs. tier 2 and LMT vs. colt vs Novesek vs whoever you want to add. There is however a Best for You AR. The gun that will be acceptable to the weekend plinker will never be acceptable to a professional 3 gun competitor. Just as an out of the box Savage from Dicks will not be acceptable to someone who is looking to make 1000 yd rifle hits.
 
If your AR does not have a staked castle nut or gas key screws, you can use an automatic center punch. Simple job that takes a couple of minutes, and it's cheap insurance in the rare event they back out.
 
jaymce said:
"This has been one of the most informative AR threads, though."

-JR



I kind of missed what you were going with here I guess.

That does not negate my answers but perhaps "How to choose the best AR for you" should have been the title. In that case here is what my thought process was, and I think what will yield the best results for someone trying to wade through the AR swamp.

Step 1)

Determine what the intended use will be. Do not lie to yourself in this area. Not being truthful with yourself will lead to a higher cost in the end. If you are looking to build a race / ultra-high end AR, with tight 200yd groups, and un-paralleled repeatability, then off the shelf Olympic arms is not going to fill the bill.

Step 2)

Determine what your budget is. This will lead to conflict with step one. If you want a sub MOA 200 yd AR you are not going to do that on a tight budget. When doing this you will have to take all factors into account. Building a rifle can be fun but if you fail to lay out all the parts needed right out of the gate, you will find any budget eaten up quickly. Also stick to the plan otherwise the budget can go wrong real quick. If you budget for a 50$ stock and then go with a 150$ stock realize what this will do the budget. Do not forget the little things, BUIS can be expensive if you want a good set. These little changes add up quickly. Plus do not forget to add in the tools required. If you are only going to build one AR that tool investment needs to be taken into consideration.

Step 3)

Determine what your level of failure rate or tinkering you are willing to put up with. If you are using the gun for casual plinking and it fails you pack it up and go home for the day. If you just spent 100s of $ on a carbine class or for lodging at a 3 gun competition then the 50$ you saved to get the cheapest bolt will pale in comparison to the $s lost going home the first day after your gun fails.

Once you have determined use, budget and failure rate then use "The List" if you are looking into a production gun. If looking for a high end custom the list will be of little use to you. Do your homework here. I found the cost of stepping out of the 2nd tier guns into the bottom of the 1st tier guns not to be that much in the grand scheme of things. I also had specific features and parts in mind for the build I wanted so that leads me in a particular direction. I also found that once I took into account upgrades that I would want then the 2nd tier guns were the same price as the completed 1st tier guns.

What quickly became apparent to me is that if you want a 3rd tier gun then you get an off brand/no name gun with questionable hit or miss reliability. The assembly can be hit or miss as well. You might get a guy who can put together a lower and does it well but you are just as likely to get a guy who is slapping the parts together and hoping it will work out for the end user. While one guy buys one and said it works great the next guy will say he had nothing but problems until he sold it and was happy to see it gone. Chances are that if you plan on buying a 3rd tier gun with the plans of building it up over time you will be better off buying a stripped lower and receiver as most of the parts you are paying for will end up in the trash anyway and the Upper and lower you end up with as a base may be of questionable quality. From a machieists point of view these guns are probably made off of parts that are at the very edges of the acceptable specifications for the parts used.

2nd tier guns are good guns. Most are well made and have a low failure rate but are have been known to fail under extreme conditions. These are great for the average shooter. Some are probably used by law enforcement. They are good guns at a good price. They represent a good value. Using the chart may allow you to improve these guns by inspecting them for proper assembly, checking to see if the bolt is staked for example.

1st tier guns are the top of the line. They will have the lowest failure rate and highest quality parts. They will more than likely be assembled by and for shops that hold to a higher quality in parts and assembly. Some of the top tier guns are priced just over the 2nd tier but most tend to be the higher $ semi-custom rifles. Some manufacturers here supply the military and law enforcement communities. Others are geared to the compeition shooter.

In my opinion there is no "Best AR" any time that is asked it becomes a pissing match between tier one vs. tier 2 and LMT vs. colt vs Novesek vs whoever you want to add. There is however a Best for You AR. The gun that will be acceptable to the weekend plinker will never be acceptable to a professional 3 gun competitor. Just as an out of the box Savage from Dicks will not be acceptable to someone who is looking to make 1000 yd rifle hits.
Click to expand...

Another Excellent post.
 
bpm990d said:
d I don't sleep better at night because my barrel has park underneath the FSB.
Click to expand...

This is just one minor detail when taken into consideration on it's own merits really doesn't matter, but it adds to the overall warm and fuzzy feeling about a manufacturer that I look for which speaks to a companies willingness to not cut corners because if they cut one corner to save money the question needs to be asked what other corners are they cutting like, staking on the gas key, cheaper metals for barrels, non chromed carrier, non chromed barrel or skimping on the pressure testing but telling you it's all sunshine and rainbows.

I want a go-bang every time gun and even with the off chance of a ammo manufacturer mistakenly making some hot loads at least i know my barrel will handle 1 versus none.
 
I've done my best to read thru all the oppions and comments here so I figured I might as well add my .02. Of the AR that I own 2 were bought complete,both being from DPMS.
The others I built the lowers and puchased the uppers from some of the members here.
2 of them are in 223 one is a dedicated 22 rimfire and the last which I hope to take to a range tomorrow night is a Loveske in 300/221 Fireball. the lower are S&W,Delton and Bushmaster. I have not fire them alot because of my job but now that I'm retired I hope to get out more. As of this point all the rifles have been reliable and shoot better than I can. The Loveske upper and the lower for it which is a S&W with LPK from Stag cost me a total of about $1300 a little pricey to me but I wanted something nice in an AR so I went for it. Haven't checked prices on ARs lately but my guess is that most base rifles are in the $900 range so for something nicer save your money and get the parts as you go along it may take longer but you'll have what you really want in the end.
 
What are these cheaper metals used in barrels? I think you are mistaken that some about some of the merits of firing a HPT proof round.

B
 

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