AR15 Remove pins in collapsible stock ?

[Harleynut]

I am a New Hampshire resident with a non resident Mass LTC A. I ordered a Rock River AR15 but had it made Mass compliant. I shoot in Mass sometimes and wanted it compliant. I also felt it would be easier to sell that way if I ever wanted to get rid of the gun. It came from the factory with a collapsible stock that has two roll pins installed by them holding it in place.
I read somewhere that the stock had to be fixed and require a tool to adjust it for it to be legal.
So my question is would it be legal to remove the roll pins and use screws to lock the stock?
It would still require a tool (Screwdriver) to change the adjustments.
This way I could keep it adjustable in NH and fix it when going to Mass to keep them happy.

 

[Tim111]

IANAL but I think that would be fine. The laws are so grey in this state that most police officers can't understand them. To me though fixed=fixed, regardless of how.

 

[vellnueve]

IANAL but I think that would be fine. The laws are so grey in this state that most police officers can't understand them. To me though fixed=fixed, regardless of how.

Wrong.

A mere screw will not suffice for ban compliance.

 

[Harleynut]

Wrong.

A mere screw will not suffice for ban compliance.

What if I were to install allen head bolts and use an allen wrench to remove?

I remember reading the "cant be adjusted with out a tool" somewhere but haven't been able to find it.

Just wondering what I would have to be done to make it legal. I am trying to avoid buying a new stock and switching it over every time I cross the state line.
At this time I am not 100% sure that the stock they use has all the parts inside to make it collapsible anyway. If anyone has done this let me know.
I have seen bushmasters done like this too with the pins so maybe someone else has worked it out.

I have had many people say don't worry if your a New Hampshire resident I think they are confusing being able to carry a non mass approved handgun like a Kimber with the special rules they dreamed up with the assalt weapons ban laws.

 

[SigFan]

How you do know a screw will not suffice? According to the now-defunct Federal ban "B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;"

The Massachusetts AWB mirrors the 1994 bill, hence the wording would be the same. If the stock is rendered non-moveable by any means, it is in compliance, is it not? I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I am curious as to where you got your information saying that a screw is not sufficient. Can you site your source? I'm curious for my own information.

 

[vellnueve]

BATFE Technical Branch defined the modes of pinning that would be acceptable under their ban. Since, as you said, the MA AWB pretty much mirrors the Federal ban in most ways, a screw would not be allowed.

 

[jdubois]

I remember reading the "cant be adjusted with out a tool" somewhere but haven't been able to find it.

I believe you are thinking of the California ban stipulation that you cannot have the detatchable magazine unless it requires a tool to remove it. I have never seen a clarification that a stock can be telescoping or folding if it takes a tool to do so.

ATF had said that the stock must be 'permanently' fixed to be legal
for the federal ban. If MA follows this rule, even most pinned stocks that I've seen could be found to be illegal because they are hardly permanent or even at all difficult to unpin.

I think you would be treading of very thin ice to have a tool-adjustable stock in MA.

 

[SigFan]

BATFE Technical Branch defined the modes of pinning that would be acceptable under their ban. Since, as you said, the MA AWB pretty much mirrors the Federal ban in most ways, a screw would not be allowed.

Can you send me the actual link for this? I was just all over the BATF's website and couldn't find any reference to this. Sorry to be a pain in the backside, but I feel that it's important to fully research this Thanks!

 

[vellnueve]

It's a moot point for you because you cannot own an AR in Boston.

 

[SigFan]

It's a totally valid point because I don't actually live in Boston. I work in Boston, yes, but I live outside the "exclusion zone". Now, how about please finding me that link about pins vs. screws that you saw on the BATF website that I can't seem to locate??

 

[vellnueve]

Do your own legwork. The letter is out there.

 

[drgrant]

BATFE Technical Branch defined the modes of pinning that would be acceptable under their ban. Since, as you said, the MA AWB pretty much mirrors the Federal ban in most ways, a screw would not be allowed.

Yeah, but MA law doesn't mirror these "letters" in any way. This really is only a "best guess" that they would adopt the same determinations, but I wouldn't bet on that.

A screw could be fine. Or you may need to use a double crumpet xiectalub extremely gay buffer tube that only has one hole in it with a blind pin installed in such a way that a blowtorch is required to remove it. Nobody really knows what MA would think because there is zero case law on the issue in this state.


-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I think you would be treading of very thin ice to have a tool-adjustable stock in MA.

Hey! Hammers, Blowtorches, Dremels and Sawzalls are also tools.

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

Hey! Hammers, Blowtorches, Dremels and Sawzalls are also tools.

Wait, you're not saying that you own any of those dangerous and anti-American terrorist devices are you?

 

[Harleynut]

I hope all the do gooders writing up the laws sleep better tonight knowing that my stock is still firmly pinned in one place.(for tonight) This is a great example of them saying follow the rules but refusing to say what the rules are.

 

[Gooman24]

You could ask Rob - He would know. I am surprised Jack doesn't.

BTW Been lurking here for a while. Couldn't resist this first post. Harleynut should know why.

 

[Underwhere]

Wrong.

A mere screw will not suffice for ban compliance.

My MA compliant Stag AR comes like this:

1. 1 hole drilled in the buffer tube. No other holes.
2. A threaded screw where the normal adjustable lever is on the stock
3. The buffer tube is rifle length

So as far as adjustability, the only thing that does prevents this is the threaded screw.

If I unscrewed it, I could slide the stock along the buffer tube...I just don't have any adjustment holes to secure it in a different place.

I have no roll pins anywhere but have seen them in other stocks on other MA compliant rifles.

 

[Underwhere]

Here is my thread on adjustable stocks

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=58887&highlight=stock

 

[vellnueve]

And I think you'd find that if there was more than one hole, they'd consider that collapsible...

 

[Underwhere]

And I think you'd find that if there was more than one hole, they'd consider that collapsible...

I'm still trying to search for that BATF doc that you mentioned so I can figure out exactly what I can do with this. If you have it handy or a link, it'd be appreciated.

 

[jdubois]

I'm still trying to search for that BATF doc that you mentioned so I can figure out exactly what I can do with this. If you have it handy or a link, it'd be appreciated.

I think this is the ATF letter he was referring to. It is talking about folding stocks, not telescoping ones, but the only reasonable interpretation would be that the situation with telescoping stocks would be identical. But, as always, this letter is only valid for the old Federal ban. Without any case law or official state clarification, we can only guess if it applies to the MA ban (though I think the wording in S121, "shall have the same meaning as", can be reasonably construed to mean that all ATF letters and rulings apply). It also leaves open the question as to whether even pinning a stock is enough.

A folding shoulder stock which has been secured, by means of a screw, in the extended position, would not be considered a fixed shoulder stock. The shoulder stock would still be "a folding or telescoping shoulder stock" as enumerated above.

 

[Harleynut]

You could ask Rob - He would know. I am surprised Jack doesn't.

BTW Been lurking here for a while. Couldn't resist this first post. Harleynut should know why.

Hey Gooman24
So what was Rob’s thoughts on this?
To be honest with something as important as this I feel safer with the information available here then what you usually find in a gun shop. If you go to 6 shops it’s not unusual to get 6 completely different answers. Lots of threads on here about BAD gun shop information.

There are shops that say if you’re a NH resident you don't have to worry if it’s not Mass ok. That maybe right with some guns but the AWB laws don't seem to give out of state residents any special privileges.
(Starting off with no person shall have in their possession)Having said that the FEDS allow us to transport from one state to another. I would think transporting from NH to somewhere south of Mass would be ok as long as you were not making a stop in Mass. Even there is a gray area.

 

[jdubois]

I would think transporting from NH to somewhere south of Mass would be ok as long as you were not making a stop in Mass.

Correct. As long as you followed the stipulations in § 926A, it would legally protect you against the MA AWB. Though it is more gray as to whether it would protect you against the large capacity magazine ban.

 

[Harleynut]

Here is my thread on adjustable stocks

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=58887&highlight=stock

Thanks for the information.
Still seems like there were lots of unanswered questions.

 

[Underwhere]

I think this is the ATF letter he was referring to. It is talking about folding stocks, not telescoping ones, but the only reasonable interpretation would be that the situation with telescoping stocks would be identical. But, as always, this letter is only valid for the old Federal ban. Without any case law or official state clarification, we can only guess if it applies to the MA ban (though I think the wording in S121, "shall have the same meaning as", can be reasonably construed to mean that all ATF letters and rulings apply). It also leaves open the question as to whether even pinning a stock is enough.

Interesting. Thanks for the find.

Perhaps that means my Stag was sold to me non-compliant.

 

[DevX]

I am a New Hampshire resident with a non resident Mass LTC A. I ordered a Rock River AR15 but had it made Mass compliant. I shoot in Mass sometimes and wanted it compliant. I also felt it would be easier to sell that way if I ever wanted to get rid of the gun. It came from the factory with a collapsible stock that has two roll pins installed by them holding it in place.
I read somewhere that the stock had to be fixed and require a tool to adjust it for it to be legal.
So my question is would it be legal to remove the roll pins and use screws to lock the stock?
It would still require a tool (Screwdriver) to change the adjustments.
This way I could keep it adjustable in NH and fix it when going to Mass to keep them happy.

Why not just buy a collapsible assembly for when you are in NH an change it over to the pinned one when you want to shoot in MA? It takes 5 minutes, if that.

 

[Gooman24]

Hey Gooman24
So what was Rob’s thoughts on this?
To be honest with something as important as this I feel safer with the information available here then what you usually find in a gun shop. If you go to 6 shops it’s not unusual to get 6 completely different answers. Lots of threads on here about BAD gun shop information.

There are shops that say if you’re a NH resident you don't have to worry if it’s not Mass ok. That maybe right with some guns but the AWB laws don't seem to give out of state residents any special privileges.
(Starting off with no person shall have in their possession)Having said that the FEDS allow us to transport from one state to another. I would think transporting from NH to somewhere south of Mass would be ok as long as you were not making a stop in Mass. Even there is a gray area.

I don't know I will call him a soon as I get a chance and ask. Working now so I will have to call him later.

 

[Harleynut]

Why not just buy a collapsible assembly for when you are in NH an change it over to the pinned one when you want to shoot in MA? It takes 5 minutes, if that.

Thats an option and the one I may end up with in the end. I was just trying to find a way to do this legal and not have to change it everytime I crossed the state line. I had ordered the gun Mass compliant for that reason. I felt it was better to start off compliant and make it evil once back in a free state.

 

[Harleynut]

Correct. As long as you followed the stipulations in § 926A, it would legally protect you against the MA AWB. Though it is more gray as to whether it would protect you against the large capacity magazine ban.

The mags are yet another silly law. I do leave my favorite magpul mags in New Hampshire and bought some Pre Ban mags then rebuilt them with some MagPul parts to keep Assachusetts happy. I was able to find one preban 40 round mag and a bunch of 30's.
The sad thing is I don't think the people writing the laws really believe this will help keep us safer just trying to make it look like they are doing something to justify their existance.
I moved from Mass to NH several years ago to get away from this stuff but still have lots of Mass friends I shoot with. So to quote line from the God Father" Just when you think your out they drag ya back"

 

[Old Glory]

Pefect solution...Buy a second rifle