Anti-Depressants and shooting sprees

[GL2020]

Lol except that allergic reactions don't create random public danger/zombies/time bombs. I'm not saying the shit needs to be banned but it's weird enough that a GP shouldn't even be allowed to perscribe them without other considerations. SSRIs are way overperscribed in this country. Do they work? Sure, but imho there's rarely free lunch here.

Admittedly I am biased because I've spent a large portion of my life around people "on meds" and I'm very skeptical of their overally efficacy. I think there's a lack of attention on the dangers of the crap, pharma has the "well, they were already crazy so its not our fault" excuse but sometimes it's not abundantly clear that the drugs played zero role in making things worse.

I do believe they probably were over prescribed. In the 90's when they first hit main stream you could say you cried cause your dog died and walk out with an Rx for prozac.
But I do think the psych field is being a bit more aware that it shouldn't always be the first line of defense and have dialed it back a little since then. They were trying it for everything...bipolar, OCD, schizophrenia. My son was having issues in his late teens (much better in his late 20's)....and was diagnosed and misdiagnosed and re-diagnosed multiple times...different meds. Yup, plain old AHDH with a mother (my ex) convinced he had bi-polar and putting her thumb on the scale.

I like to remind people that the psych field overall has a horrible record with figuring out what's wrong.
Their first diagnosis (according to a study I saw from the UK) was wrong about 60% of the time...makes sense the treatment response would be wrong as well. But to be fair to them on another front....there are lots of times they'd like to hospitalize someone but can't because of insurance, or they don't meet the criteria for being locked up legally. We all know people get bounced out a hospitals when insurance says so, not the docs. An acquaintance of mine in my 40's was a shrink and he described (chatting at a party) the insanity insurance made him go through trying to get a woman into a psych hospital who was catatonic. Things gotta be really bad for them to try.

I agree when you said it shouldn't be prescribed by PCP's. Certainly in the initial weeks/months there needs to be closer monioring for those poeple who have bad reactions.
We know most people who have "bad" acute reaction are "usually" males under 35. That's not absolute but seems to be more common. Suspect a little testosterone thrown in the mix is what helps.
Those that have been suicidal/male/and lethargic often get enough energy and motivation to finally take action.

I'm still inclined to lean toward more societal/social issues and social contagion for shooting. It had become the "popular" thing to do to air a grievance with the world when you want to go out in blaze of glory.

 

[Glockster30]

One thing to be careful of is seeing correlation and assuming it is causation. On the first day of statistics 101 we are taught that correlation is not causation. For example, nearly everyone who dies drank water — that is an almost perfect correlation. Did drinking water kill them? In 99.9% of deaths, drinking water was not the cause of death.

When it comes to suicide, were most people who committed suicide depressed before committing suicide? Most likely yes. What is the front line treatment for people who are depressed? SSRIs. So I suspect that a high percentage of people who committed suicide were on SSRIs. Did the SSRI cause them to commit suicide? Probably not, but you can see the likely correlation between SSRI use and suicide.

I think there is likely to be a similar correlation between mass shooters and SSRIs. People don’t decide to commit mass murder because they are happy. They are likely profoundly unhappy, depressed, and mentally ill. What’s the frontline treatment for someone who is profoundly depressed? SSRIs. So I suspect that a high percentage of spree killers were on SSRIs. Did the SSRI cause them to commit mass murder? I think that is highly unlikely.

I understand that the bolded font in your quote above is an opinion. Are there any data that backs this up?

 

[Dench]

Jordan Peterson was talking about anti depressants on Rogan a few years ago. He's reasonably pro med. Paraphrased, he said something on the lines of depression being on a scale to 0-15 that a working med will only lower it by 1 point. It's a start, but he makes it clear its not a lot more than that in terms of addressing the issues.

I never said or implied that I served in the military. Just that there is a saying in the military about assumptions. It is one that you probably know.

I've heard it but never associated it with the military, although I'm sure they say it as a lot of people in the military are only capable of speaking in slogans and sayings.

 

[M1911]

I understand that the bolded font in your quote above is an opinion. Are there any data that backs this up?

That’s a good question. I haven't looked for data on that. I suspect that most studies are about the effect of medication on the suicide rate — does it increase or decrease the suicide rate. For example, this a review paper Antidepressants and Suicide Risk: A Comprehensive Overview

In general, the papers that I’ve glanced at are all over the map. Most of the ones that I’ve glanced at in higher profile journals say that SSRIs are associated with lower risk of suicide, but I’ve seen some studies that found increased risk of suicide. None of those papers addressed your question however — what percent of people who committed suicide were on SSRIs.

But to be clear, I have not studied the literature and if I did read a bunch of these papers I’m sure that I would miss a lot of important issues due to my lack of training in the field. I’m not a doctor or psychologist or psychiatrist and my knowledge of statistics is limited. So don’t take my views as being in any way definitive.

 

[GL2020]

I understand that the bolded font in your quote above is an opinion. Are there any data that backs this up?

I don't know if it can be called data, but I watched a symposium on the AMA channel (loooooong time ago) and the panel had a couple shrinks talking about depression/psych meds and their use. This was probably 1994/1995 so I'll say that up front


The one thing I remember vividly that was an ongoing topic of discussion on the panel....there are some people...often young men who were so depressed that lack the clarity and energy to actually attempt to harm themselves. Depression in severe forms can make people unable to plan....often they sleep alot...withdraw from life.

Of great concern was that giving them a med that made them feel better might just give them the push they needed to take action.
That was something I hadn't even thought of when the discussion started and ultimately they used it as backing for "So there needs be me monitoring in the early phases"

As I said not data...just something that stuck with me.

 

[M1911]

The one thing I remember vividly that was an ongoing topic of discussion on the panel....there are some people...often young men who were so depressed that lack the clarity and energy to actually attempt to harm themselves. Depression in severe forms can make people unable to plan....often they sleep alot...withdraw from life.

Of great concern was that giving them a med that made them feel better might just give them the push they needed to take action.
That was something I hadn't even thought of when the discussion started and ultimately they used it as backing for "So there needs be me monitoring in the early phases"

As I said not data...just something that stuck with me.

That is the exact same thing that a psychiatrist told me.

 

[GL2020]

Lol except that allergic reactions don't create random public danger/zombies/time bombs. I'm not saying the shit needs to be banned but it's weird enough that a GP shouldn't even be allowed to perscribe them without other considerations. SSRIs are way overperscribed in this country. Do they work? Sure, but imho there's rarely free lunch here.

Admittedly I am biased because I've spent a large portion of my life around people "on meds" and I'm very skeptical of their overally efficacy. I think there's a lack of attention on the dangers of the crap, pharma has the "well, they were already crazy so its not our fault" excuse but sometimes it's not abundantly clear that the drugs played zero role in making things worse.

Another thing to respond a bit to last part where you expressed a bit of bias. I kind of do too in different way toward psych hospitals.

My ex...misdiagnosed for years...in and out psych hospitals for literally decades. Meds...therapy...groups....AA/NA...Knew just what to say (and do) to get the diagnosis she wanted and be inpatient for as little or as long as she wanted (and hide from whatever crisis she had created). My opinion was borderline personality disorder with alcoholism for good measure, but I just lived with her, so what do I know? Periods of relative calm...periods of absolute hell for everyone...even for people who didn't live with her.

I think we like to believe that a hospital or med can "cure" or "fix" some people. And more often than not in my experience they can't. They can help...in some case make some bad parts more manageable/tolerable. But she'll always just be "broken"....it's a question of how broken and how well gets by in day to day life. Last I heard she just got arrested some BS and moved in with a sister. So my sense is her life is not going swimmingly. She's why I didn't have firearms in the house for a long time. She had no impulse control and when angry could not restrain herslef, so I didn't want a 9mm at my head in bed after a donny-brook thought was over and went to sleep.

So I have a bit of bias with psych hospitals cause I've only seen their failures...the people who are frequent flyers...revolving door on the front. The ex was one of them....but at heart what she was was a really good liar...she even believed her. I don't think that is fixable by med or man.

 

[M1911]

I think we like to believe that a hospital or med can "cure" or "fix" some people. And more often than not in my experience they can't. They can help...in some case make some bad parts more manageable/tolerable.

In addition, there are many folks who simply don't want treatment. I know someone who is paranoid, among her many other issues. As a result, she won't seek treatment, let alone take the medication that had been prescribed for her. So she self-medicates with alcohol and is now an alcoholic on top of her other issues.

 

[GL2020]

Dude really???? I think you need SSRI’sI’ll bite though….Did it help the lady who recently just strangled her kids with exercise bands???
Did it help the Uvalde shooter
Did it help the Nashville shooter
Did it help my ex
Did it help my 2 best friends who were decorated combat veterans (both veteran suicides)

We can do this all day.

Adolf Hilter
Rudolph Hess
Charles Manson
Genghis Kahn
Lanza (Sandy Hook)

All vegetarians

Can't you see vegetarianism causes people to commit mass murder?

Yes, sick people are likely to on meds that other sick people take. And the fact that some sick people do really horrible things doesn't mean the meds are culpable. Is it worth examining...absolutely.

Sorry about your friends. I've lost a few along the way too, but blaming some med you don't like?
I remain unconvinced there is a causative link

 

[Dench]

In addition, there are many folks who simply don't want treatment. I know someone who is paranoid, among her many other issues. As a result, she won't seek treatment, let alone take the medication that had been prescribed for her. So she self-medicates with alcohol and is now an alcoholic on top of her other issues.

I feel for that person. I have a very hard time trusting doctors, I can't imagine how a person with a paranoid disorder can deal with that.

 

[M1911]

I feel for that person. I have a very hard time trusting doctors, I can't imagine how a person with a paranoid disorder can deal with that.

She can't. And sadly she has good reason to distrust psychiatrists.

 

[SgtHal75]

Adolf Hilter
Rudolph Hess
Charles Manson
Genghis Kahn
Lanza (Sandy Hook)

All vegetarians

Can't you see vegetarianism causes people to commit mass murder?

Yes, sick people are likely to on meds that other sick people take. And the fact that some sick people do really horrible things doesn't mean the meds are culpable. Is it worth examining...absolutely.

Sorry about your friends. I've lost a few along the way too, but blaming some med you don't like?
I remain unconvinced there is a causative link

We get it dude your pro pharma and an expert on dangerous medication because you know a few ppl who took them

 

[drgrant]

I went to the VA for some sleep issues a few years ago…I got mild apnea and guess what???

Yup, here you go hard charger! Here’s you SSRIz!!! Fix you right up!

I said no thanks I’ll stick with the apnea

Those things are overprescribed, dangerous, and it’s all by design

I don't think they're designed to be dangerous, just that in some cases they clearly are... and the industry generally doesn't give a shit about patient safety.... because they don't want to admit there are problems, aka.... liability.

 

[Dench]

I went to the VA for some sleep issues a few years ago…I got mild apnea and guess what???

Yup, here you go hard charger! Here’s you SSRIz!!! Fix you right up!

I said no thanks I’ll stick with the apnea

Those things are overprescribed, dangerous, and it’s all by design

The VA loves pushing those. Sad.

 

[ridleyman]

Antidepressant prescribing increases by 35% in six years

The number of antidepressants prescribed in England rose by 5.1% in 2021/2022 compared with the previous year — the sixth annual increase in a row. The latest increase means that the number of antidepressant items prescribed over the past six years has increased by 34.8%, from 61.9 million items...

pharmaceutical-journal.com

With ~70 million on antidepressants, there's a lot more to it...

"The latest increase means that the number of antidepressant items prescribed over the past six years has increased by 34.8%, from 61.9 million items in 2015/2016 to 83.4 million items in 2021/2022.

What a depressing number! Gee, we're soft. If I ever get depressed, I just go to the local package store and the clerk will happily prescribe me something to take care of the problem.

 

[M1911]

What a depressing number! Gee, we're soft. If I ever get depressed, I just go to the local package store and the clerk will happily prescribe me something to take care of the problem.

Alcohol is a depressant.

 

[skynet]

I appologize for reposting a TikTok but this is a long list of kids who got multiple cracks to the head and went on to have dogs that told them to kill people. All of this is pre big pharma.


View: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8BBEdWs/

 

[ridleyman]

Alcohol is a depressant.

I know it is, but why am I always happier when I drink?

 

[MaverickNH]

CNN Weasel Words

”Ultimately, what makes the US so exceptional when it comes to mass shootings is how pervasive guns are. There are more guns in the US than people. While stricter gun laws might not completely eradicate shootings, and other forms of violence may still persist, these laws could go a long way in saving lives.”

Might Not Complete Eradicate = Not 100.00% Effective
Go a Long Way is >0% but <100% Effective?

 

[puška m70]

This garbage has a black box warning on them for a reason. We can look at that warning 2 ways. One, the people on it are already predisposed to self harm and/or the medication doesnt work well/makes it worse.

Sounds like a f*** job to me.

Call me crazy but I'm more interested in why so many people are depressed. I believe that they are. So what's causing it? probably our society and low physical activity primarily. But fixing those 2 things doesnt make pharma money.

How many times does the CDC/FDA/Pharma have to out itself before you guys start looking at them critically? They arent trying to cure anyone. They are trying to make money.

True on the social factor. The high prevalence of depression/anxiety is a first world problem more or less.

Some people here shouldn't pretend that a literal mind altering drug doesn't have the potential (and history) of really messing some people up in a few cases. Sometimes SSRIs do seem to help people with severe depression but I think they are something pretty controversial for a reason.

 

[M1911]

I know it is, but why am I always happier when I drink?

You feel that way while you drink it. The depressive effect comes later.

 

[SgtHal75]

True on the social factor. The high prevalence of depression/anxiety is a first world problem more or less.

Some people here shouldn't pretend that a literal mind altering drug doesn't have the potential (and history) of really messing some people up in a few cases. Sometimes SSRIs do seem to help people with severe depression but I think they are something pretty controversial for a reason.

yup. They not only f*** your brain up chemically but they change the structure of your brain.

These antidepressants are the next opioid crisis. And us getting it under control can’t come fast enough.

 

[powerman]

Which is why they are approved by the FDA.

Thats comforting. They know what they're doing.

 

[LT5]

Well funny, but it may be enough to have that slightly depreseed mother now knocked on her ass with post-partum depression get out of bed and feed her infant.

Or lynch her three kids and jump out the second floor window like the nurse in kingston did.

I’m not calling you out and I’m glad that they helped you but, like others here, those that I know personally that accepted these prescriptions found themselves in far worse condition on them and even worse yet again coming off.
Anecdotal I know.
I just think that lifestyle changes, dealing with one’s past, or fixing underlying issues should be the primary goal vs prescriptions that need to caution about them causing people to kill themselves or others.
The fact that you said urologists pass them out like candy is terrifying.
Again, I’m glad they help you.

 

[Mass-diver]

Hard to trust anything these days since big pharma is smart enough to control the research (amazing how they directly fund a lot of the CDC research) while also spending big bucks on lobbying to make sure the laws are in their favor.

 

[LT5]

Hard to trust anything these days since big pharma is smart enough to control the research (amazing how they directly fund a lot of the CDC research) while also spending big bucks on lobbying to make sure the laws are in their favor.

Not to mention the revolving door careers between the two.

 

[M1911]

Hard to trust anything these days since big pharma is smart enough to control the research (amazing how they directly fund a lot of the CDC research) while also spending big bucks on lobbying to make sure the laws are in their favor.

Huh?

The CDC does comparatively little research. Most publicly funded medical research in the US is done by or funded by the NIH. CDC also has comparatively little input on medical regulation — that is performed by the FDA.

Pharma does a great deal of their own research and development but they don’t fund NIH research. I’ve been on grant funded projects for about 20 years. Those projects totaled over $700M in funding (only a portion of that came to my employer). During that time we had one small collaboration with a pharma company. The pharma company put up about $1M in funding, so their influence was negligible.

 

[Mass-diver]

Huh?

The CDC does comparatively little research. Most publicly funded medical research in the US is done by or funded by the NIH. CDC also has comparatively little input on medical regulation — that is performed by the FDA.

Pharma does a great deal of their own research and development but they don’t fund NIH research. I’ve been on grant funded projects for about 20 years. Those projects totaled over $700M in funding (only a portion of that came to my employer). During that time we had one small collaboration with a pharma company. The pharma company put up about $1M in funding, so their influence was negligible.

More accurately, big pharma is funding the CDC’s activities

What money? The CDC is urged to acknowledge industry funding

Advocacy groups contend that despite CDC disclaimers to the contrary, the agency has accepted tens of millions of dollars of commercial support through its foundation.

www.statnews.com

 

[GL2020]

Or lynch her three kids and jump out the second floor window like the nurse in kingston did.

I’m not calling you out and I’m glad that they helped you but, like others here, those that I know personally that accepted these prescriptions found themselves in far worse condition on them and even worse yet again coming off.
Anecdotal I know.
I just think that lifestyle changes, dealing with one’s past, or fixing underlying issues should be the primary goal vs prescriptions that need to caution about them causing people to kill themselves or others.
The fact that you said urologists pass them out like candy is terrifying.
Again, I’m glad they help you.

Well they helped me stop smoking (Wellbutrin/Zyban), but not with depression so much.

As I mentioned in the early 90's I had Cushings. There were no visible signs, but had a fat tumor growing on my pituitary crushing it.

As is sometimes the case with glandular issues they get misdiagnosed as psych issues (an ongoing grievance I have with the medical field...I've yelled at a few docs).

So the typical symptoms are weight gain (I gained over 100 pounds in 2 years), fatigue, and generally reduced/depressed mood (usually attributed to being exhausted and fat). Later on purple strethch marks show up on the abdomen and other places. The same thing can happen to people who absue steroids long term,

I went undiagnosed until 2003...so spent most of the 90's being misdiagnosed with some form of depression and being put on/taken off various SSRI's and being told to exercise. Didn't seem to help much, but certainly didn't hurt. The fix was to take the large growing golfball out of my head.

I always tell folks, ESPECIALLY WOMAN, if you get diagnosed with depression/anxiety, get thyroid and pituatary checked. These disorders although rare often go undiagnosed/misdiagnosed for a decade or more. In fact autoposies show many people die with pituatary tumors and never know it.

But SSRI (Wellbutrin) definitely helped with smoking

Urologist handing them out...they're not so scary cause they use very small doze...usually like 10-20 mg of generic zoloft (forgot what it's called)... much less that what is considered "theraputic", but enough to make a difference. He's gotten very good reports. Zoloft not so good for depression anyway from what I hear...it's more effective with OCD stuff

 

[safetyfirst2125]

“While questions on causality remain, these results indicate that there may be an increased risk of violent crime during SSRI treatment in a small group of individuals. It may persist throughout medicated periods, across age groups, and after treatment discontinuation.”


Associations between selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and violent crime in adolescents, young, and older adults – a Swedish register-based study - PMC

Associations between selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and violent crime in adolescents, young, and older adults – a Swedish register-based study

This study identified individuals ever dispensed a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) aged 15–60 years during 2006–2013, using Swedish national registers. The outcome was violent crime conviction. The main statistical analyses ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov