Anti-Depressants and shooting sprees

M1911 said:
Black box warnings on medications are warnings ordered by the FDA. Pharma doesn’t choose to place a black box warning on a medication nor are they allowed to choose the wording of that warning. They place a black box warning on the medication because they were ordered to do so by the FDA and that order from the FDA included the required wording.
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OK, so they were hogtied and choked out by FDA for the verbiage. That said, I wouldn't trust Big Pharma as far as I could vomit them!
 
Dench said:
Except people abuse drugs that don't make them high.

Give it up. Go get another booster or something Mr FDA. Must be safe! /s

How are you a mod here? Jesus Christ [rofl]
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You know better than all the doctors and all the PhD researchers. How many of the peer reviewed journal articles about SSRIs have you read? How many patients have you treated with SSRIs? Have you reviewed the FDA applications of the SSRIs? Do you know the difference between a Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 trial? Have you read the thousands of follow up studies after the SSRIs were approved?

But you know better because you just know.

It is amazing to me how folks are so sure that they know better about these things than the experts when in fact they they have no training, no experience, and little knowledge of the domain.
 
M1911 said:
Have you reviewed the FDA applications of the SSRIs?

It is amazing to me how folks are so sure that they know better about these things than the experts when in fact they they have no training, no experience, and little knowledge of the domain.
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The mighty FDA, which approved phenylephrine but now says it does nothing.
 
… I have spent significant amount of time thinking about why we have mass shootings here in the US. And I believe it has nothing to do with pharmaceuticals… or at least it is not the main factor.

The main reason is hatred. But not hatred in the pure meaning of hatred as hating somebody for their actions/ behavior/ thinking or whatever else makes us hate somebody.

Hatred- as disliking others just because they are different. But are we so different now and weren’t 30 years ago when shootings were exceptions? No. But we didn’t have the information to identify ourselves back then. Today we are very aware what group we belong to because of a concerted effort of media (among other things) to segregate us…… 30 years ago there were blacks, whites, democrats and republicans. Fast forward to today and we are jews, arabs, gays, lesbians, trans, hispanics, white trash, socialists, communists… throw in the whole alphabet of disorders to glue this motley crew into a society…. and the list goes on. With all the online information at our fingertips it is easy to identify oneself as member of one of those groups. And once we know where we belong- everybody else is different. Most folks deal with it ok, but some folks feel the need to express their group belonging and violence as a primitive statement is one way to do it. Media amplifies it and they leave their mark on history. Or so the wicked thinking goes.

Add to the mix that we are generally a basic-need-satisfied society and this results in wierd often violent individuals. This curious transformation is well documented in the Universe 25 experiment. Don’t know about it? Educate yourself. It is a very telling well documented experiment done in the 70ties I believe. In a nutshell lack of personal space leads to collapse of society…. And mostly because of technology we have no personal space anymore….

And there we are…
 
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MaverickNH said:
pharmaceutical-journal.com

Antidepressant prescribing increases by 35% in six years

The number of antidepressants prescribed in England rose by 5.1% in 2021/2022 compared with the previous year — the sixth annual increase in a row. The latest increase means that the number of antidepressant items prescribed over the past six years has increased by 34.8%, from 61.9 million items...
pharmaceutical-journal.com pharmaceutical-journal.com

With ~70 million on antidepressants, there's a lot more to it...

"The latest increase means that the number of antidepressant items prescribed over the past six years has increased by 34.8%, from 61.9 million items in 2015/2016 to 83.4 million items in 2021/2022.
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With most problems you just follow the money. And the more money involved, the more apologists spring up to deny it.
 
M1911 said:
There are tens of millions of people in the US on SSRIs. The rate of those extreme side effects is very low.
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Correct. Personally, I feel they are over prescribed. I have witnessed people who have gone through a low point in like, like job loss/breakup to get on SSRIs to feel better. It's difficult to get off once you're on.

Also @M1911 , great summary on deinstitutionalization in this thread.

whatluck said:
When I was living in a group home there was a huge black 16 year old girl who was on ssris and somehow managed to get her hands on some kind of nose candy and she went into a violent rage. It took a lot of cops to get her out of the house and into an ambulance.

This girl had caused problems for everyone before. A violent sociopath. So she had the predisposition for involuntary rage, was on ssris, was under huge stress being locked up, and on top of that managed to ride a rainbow into space. No idea how she got the dope, always suspected it was one of the "counselors".
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Am I reading the script to The Return of Reefer Madness? Yeah, when people sniff PCP or somthing they go into a violent rage. It prob wasn't the SSRIs. To that, SSRIs can actually lessen then impact of some drugs because they work in the same area/s of the brain. For example, Shrooms and SSRIs.
 
SSRIs are certainly part of the problem. I think to dismiss mind altering drugs as not being an issue is short sighted. We are a drugged up country and a lot of drugs are overprescribed.

A bigger part of the problem is huge swaths of society don't feel any purpose or that their life has any meaning.
 
M1911 said:
This.

We used to have large, state-run mental hospitals across the US. Before the 1970s, people who were mentally ill were involuntarily hospitalized. The good part of this is that they were no longer a threat to society. The bad part of this is that there were cases of terrible abuse. There were sane people involuntarily hospitalized. There were patients who were sexually or physically abused. The movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest did a terrible disservice by painting the staff as evil and the patients as harmless, which is something that the mental health advocates have bought into. Then the mental health profession and pharma oversold the effectiveness of psychoactive medication.

Those large hospitals were closed with the promise that they would be replaced with community-base facilities that would provide better treatment. Those community-based facilities were, of course, never built. So we ended up with much fewer mental health beds for inpatient treatment. Court action has made it almost impossible to involuntarily hospitalize someone.

The result is that when someone is in a mental health crisis, at best they are involuntarily hospitalized for a few days for “evaluation“. Over the course of 72 hours, the doctors diagnose them as having a health insurance deficiency, prescribe a psychoactive medication, give them a follow up appointment, and discharge them. The patient doesn’t return for the follow up, doesn’t take the medication, lather, rinse, and repeat.

I don’t know what the answer is other than to say that our current lack of a working mental health treatment system is profoundly broken.
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Yes and the another unfortunate part of the state run mental hospitals is you throw the baby out with the bath water.

The vast majority of mentally unwell people…are not and never will be violent. The numbers are extremely low. it’s that 1 in 10000 that seems to define the group.

Also it was relatively easy to get someone into “the system“ on little actual evidence and keep them there a very long time. Whether they needed it or not. It was common 50 years ago to get your troublesome teenage daughter locked up for months at a time.

people point at the in patient system and say “we’ll if we had that these people wouldnt be able to”. I guess that’s true but at what cost? The abuse, misuse, mistreatment. I worked an ambulance that cleaned out a state hospital of their long term patients. Prison was nicer.
 
alx said:
… I have spent significant amount of time thinking about why we have mass shootings here in the US. And I believe it has nothing to do with pharmaceuticals… or at least it is not the main factor.

The main reason is hatred. But not hatred in the pure meaning of hatred as hating somebody for their actions/ behavior/ thinking or whatever else makes us hate somebody.

Hatred- as disliking others just because they are different. But are we so different now and weren’t 30 years ago when shootings were exceptions? No. At least we didn’t have the information to identify ourselves. Today we are very aware because of a concerted effort of media to segregate us. 30 years ago there were blacks, whites, democrats and republicans. Fast forward to today and we are jews, arabs, gays, lesbians, trans, hispanics, white trassh, socialists, communists….. and the list goes on. And with all information at our fingertips it is easy to identify oneself as member of one of those groups. And once we know where we belong- everybody else is different. And different than us is bad. Most folks deal with it ok, but some folks feel the need to show they are superior and violence as a primitive statement is one way to do it. Media amplifies it and we leave our mark on history. Or so the wicked thinking goes.

Add to the mix that we are generally a basic need satisfied society and this results in wierd often violent individuals. This curious transformation is well documented in the Universe 25 experiment. Don’t know about it? Educate yourself. It is a very telling well documented experiment done in the 70ties I believe. In a nutshell lack of personal space leads to collapse of society…. And mostly because of technology we have no personal space anymore….

And there we are…
Click to expand...
You’re right, I think, but there’s more you hinted at with technology & personal space. Hatred isn’t new, but the modes we have to reinforce hated are new. In college in the early 70s, I lived in a rental in Ames, Iowa. We got a newsletter from a prior tenant called The ThunderBolt, which was very anti-Black/anti-Jew…it was appalling. Pictures of lynchings from the 1800s, fabrications about conspiracies, etc. But that was how hated was spread and communicated - books, newsletters, face-to-face meetings…KKK-type stuff.

Now, you can pick your channels of hatred based on any “specialty” - race, ethnicity, religion, color, etc. You can pick intellectualized channels with subtlety or overt nasty channels with violent provocation. Videos, podcasts, news-channels, eBooks and Zoom or encrypted meeting apps. You can pick your custom Neo-Nazi background in some groups, wear glasses/hats to disguise yourself and change your voice to anonymize yourself.

But mass shooters come in so many flavors, it’s way hard to generalize. Rand has an anti-gun bias, but when they say the data tell us nothing for numerous factors, are uncertain wrt assault weapons and limited for hi-cap mags, you know there’s nothing there. Their caveat ”Depending on which data source is referenced, and that source's definitions, there were between six and 503 mass shootings in the United States in 2019…” tells us that by picking what data you analyze and how you analyze it, you can bias outcomes - but even still, the main effects of any and all studies are very weak. Less than an Effect Size of 3 is considered unimportant and most factors are <1.

IMG_2522.jpeg IMG_2523.jpeg
 
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M1911 said:
I discussed this issue with a psychiatrist several years back. What he told me was that the majority of the patients who were treated with SSRIs and went on to commit suicide or homicide were people who were profoundly mentally ill. He said the riskiest time for these patients was usually when they were initially being treated with antidepressants. When someone is profoundly depressed, they are typically unable to muster up the motivation to commit violence against themselves or others. But as their depression reduces, they regain some motivation and may act on the violent impulses that they already have. That period when they are still depressed but not at the bottom of their depression is the most dangerous. He said SSRIs don’t take normal but depressed people and make them suicidal or homicidal.

People always want to find simple answers to complex problems. A lot of folks want to find one thing to point to and say ”this caused that person to kill people”. Blaming violence on SSRIs is looking for a convenient scapegoat — the problem is a lot more complex than that and wasn’t caused by SSRIs.
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I’ve known a few ppl who have taking ssri’s…2 of them committed suicide and the others had depression issues that have turned into severe depression because they abused them when they most likely shouldn’t of been prescribed them in the first place. I also don’t believe a Primary Care doctor should be prescribing them and refilling it over and over and not checking to see if the patient is seeking mental health treatment. I will stick with my opinion that these drugs are a MAJOR part of our sick society.
 
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M1911 said:
This.

We used to have large, state-run mental hospitals across the US. Before the 1970s, people who were mentally ill were involuntarily hospitalized. The good part of this is that they were no longer a threat to society. The bad part of this is that there were cases of terrible abuse. There were sane people involuntarily hospitalized. There were patients who were sexually or physically abused. The movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest did a terrible disservice by painting the staff as evil and the patients as harmless, which is something that the mental health advocates have bought into. Then the mental health profession and pharma oversold the effectiveness of psychoactive medication.

Those large hospitals were closed with the promise that they would be replaced with community-base facilities that would provide better treatment. Those community-based facilities were, of course, never built. So we ended up with much fewer mental health beds for inpatient treatment. Court action has made it almost impossible to involuntarily hospitalize someone.

The result is that when someone is in a mental health crisis, at best they are involuntarily hospitalized for a few days for “evaluation“. Over the course of 72 hours, the doctors diagnose them as having a health insurance deficiency, prescribe a psychoactive medication, give them a follow up appointment, and discharge them. The patient doesn’t return for the follow up, doesn’t take the medication, lather, rinse, and repeat.

I don’t know what the answer is other than to say that our current lack of a working mental health treatment system is profoundly broken.
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In 1980 Jimmy Carter signed the Mental Health Systems Act to close the big mental health hospitals and provided funding to build the smaller community based centers. At the time it was considered landmark legislation. In 1981 Reagan pushed through legislation as part of an omnibus funding bill that repealed most of the MHSA. Pretty much the only part of the bill that survived was the Patient's Bill of Rights. Reagan then went on the push "main streaming" of all the people in these hospitals. That was pretty much a dismal failure because tons of people couldn't function in regular society and "main streaming" them was a bad idea. As a result of Reagan the big hospitals were closed and a significant number of the displaced patients ended up on the streets. Many people consider this the start of large numbers of mentally unstable homeless people.
 
dw617 said:
Correct. Personally, I feel they are over prescribed. I have witnessed people who have gone through a low point in like, like job loss/breakup to get on SSRIs to feel better. It's difficult to get off once you're on.

Also @M1911 , great summary on deinstitutionalization in this thread.


Am I reading the script to The Return of Reefer Madness? Yeah, when people sniff PCP or somthing they go into a violent rage. It prob wasn't the SSRIs. To that, SSRIs can actually lessen then impact of some drugs because they work in the same area/s of the brain. For example, Shrooms and SSRIs.
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Lmao you don't sniff pcp, you freebase it. It was a combination of ssris, predisposition, stress, and stimulants.
 
GL2020 said:
Also it was relatively easy to get someone into “the system“ on little actual evidence and keep them there a very long time.
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QFT -- My BIL has worked for DMH his entire adult life and will attest to what you say.

You could commit a heinous crime today and then get "diagnosed" with a mental illness tomorrow. Many times the "diagnosis" is a get out of jail free card.

Conversely, there are a number of people in the so-called "criminal justice system"
that don't belong there and would be better served by the mental health system.
 
Gidge said:
QFT -- My BIL has worked for DMH his entire adult life and will attest to what you say.

You could commit a heinous crime today and then get "diagnosed" with a mental illness tomorrow. Many times the "diagnosis" is a get out of jail free card.

Conversely, there are a number of people in the so-called "criminal justice system"
that don't belong there and would be better served by the mental health system.
Click to expand...
After having seen the waning days of the state mental health hospitals IMO they were worse then anything I saw in any correctional institution in terms of maintenance/upkeep. Real shitholes.

I was thinking more of how easy it was to get someone "committed" prior to the 1970's. Wife has a drinking problem...have her locked up for 6 months. Son like boys but not girls...better have him hospitalized and fix that perversion. 19 year old confesses she likes sex with different boys?....whoa...talk to the judge.

Weird useless bit of trivia:
We all know of the author F Scott Fitzgerald (The Great Gatsby). His wife Zelda inspired the Eagle's song "Witchy Woman".
If you listen to the lyrics it's describing the goings on a the mental hospital where she died in N Carolina as the result of a fire at the facility.
By some accounts she was a better author just less famous. Their marriage was volatile, full of drinking and mutual infidelity. She spent much of her later years in and out of psych hospitals, electro convulsive treatment...the bella donna protocol. Serious issues with alcohol and absinthe. Back then it had woodworm and would in fact cause serious mental issues when over used. That's what the line "And she drove herself to madness with a silver spoon" refers to....the slotted spoon used to pour the liquid over onto sugar cubes.
 
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Junior314 said:
SSRIs are certainly part of the problem. I think to dismiss mind altering drugs as not being an issue is short sighted. We are a drugged up country and a lot of drugs are overprescribed.

A bigger part of the problem is huge swaths of society don't feel any purpose or that their life has any meaning.
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This post perfectly explains the society we live in today.
 
M1911 said:
One thing to be careful of is seeing correlation and assuming it is causation. On the first day of statistics 101 we are taught that correlation is not causation. For example, nearly everyone who dies drank water — that is an almost perfect correlation. Did drinking water kill them? In 99.9% of deaths, drinking water was not the cause of death.

When it comes to suicide, were most people who committed suicide depressed before committing suicide? Most likely yes. What is the front line treatment for people who are depressed? SSRIs. So I suspect that a high percentage of people who committed suicide were on SSRIs. Did the SSRI cause them to commit suicide? Probably not, but you can see the likely correlation between SSRI use and suicide.

I think there is likely to be a similar correlation between mass shooters and SSRIs. People don’t decide to commit mass murder because they are happy. They are likely profoundly unhappy, depressed, and mentally ill. What’s the frontline treatment for someone who is profoundly depressed? SSRIs. So I suspect that a high percentage of spree killers were on SSRIs. Did the SSRI cause them to commit mass murder? I think that is highly unlikely.
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I don't think it's irrational to consider the possibility that SSRIs cause harm. Pharma fags want everyone to believe the lies that their stuff is harmless but those things are literally the weirdest class of drugs out there. Have you ever seen someone get side effects from that shit? I had a family member who was briefly on paxil and they were f***ed up mentally in a bad way until that shit burned off (someone got him to stop taking it).

SSRIs should be a tool of last resort. If I was king you wouldn't be able to get that shit without being put in the bin first, full stop. That shit is flat out perilous.
 
SgtHal75 said:
The problem is, it is an extremely dangerous medication that should not be given to someone in a temporary crisis. It turns to temporary to permanent.
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Here's the thing. For the vast majority of people they're not "extremely dangerous medications". In fact just the opposite...for most they're extremely beneficial.
When prozac first came out and other SSRI's that followed they were hailed as a miracle. In a sense they were. Prior to that MOA inhibitors and ticyclics were the only medicines available and both had severe side effects and for many did not do much good (and issues with taking other meds and eating certain foods).
I'd be the first to agree they are often over prescribed these days. But I tend to believe people who have serious issues and do violence are more likely to be on (or have been on) these medications...so ya correlation rather than the cause.

I've had members of my family greatly helped by them (and long term) and friends over the years that have used them with no ill effects. In at least one case I'd say they saved a friend's life.

There are also many cases where they are prescribed for off label uses too. Weird thing men noticed was delayed climax. Well guess what, many urologists prescribe SSRI's for premature ejaculation. How common is that with middle aged men?

Some SSRI's are prescribed for OCD and social anxiety disorders.

I reject the notion they're "extremely dangerous medications". I think it's more accurate to say extremely dangerous people have taken them and done extremely bad things. It like pointing at a homicidal manic who likes to drink. Millions of other people drink and are not homicidal.
 
GL2020 said:
Here's the thing. For the vast majority of people they're not "extremely dangerous medications". In fact just the opposite...for most they're extremely beneficial.
When prozac first came out and other SSRI's that followed they were hailed as a miracle. In a sense they were. Prior to that MOA inhibitors and tricycles were the only medicines available and both had severe side effects and for many did not do much good (and issues with taking other meds and eating certain foods).
I'd be the first to agree they are often over prescribed these days. But I tend to believe people who have serious issues and do violence are more likely to be on (or have been on) these medications...so ya correlation rather than the cause.

I've had members of my family greatly helped by them (and long term) and friends over the years that have used them with no ill effects. In at least one case I'd say they saved a friend's life.

There are also many cases where they are prescribed for off label uses too. Weird thing men noticed was delayed climax. Well guess what, many urologists prescribe SSRI's for premature ejaculation. How common is that with middle aged men?

Some SSRI's are prescribed for OCD and social anxiety disorders.

I reject the notion they're "extremely dangerous medications". I think it's more accurate to say extremely dangerous people have taken them and done extremely bad things.
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If you've ever seen it f*** someone up you'd probably change your mind real fast. To suggest no possibility of making things worse is basically negligent.
 
drgrant said:
If you've ever seen it f*** someone up you'd probably change your mind real fast. To suggest no possibility of making things worse is basically negligent.
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Oh I don't doubt that for a minute. I have a buddy who was corrections officer. Went through a bad time and was prescribed some kind of SSRI...messed him up big. But he stopped within a few days and few days later he was fine. I'm not saying they're the happy pills some like to believe they are, but on the whole I think they do way more good, or more often nothing...than bad

If you've ever seen someone have an allergic reaction you'd want to outlaw shellfish too, right? It's kind of like that
 
GL2020 said:
Oh I don't doubt that for a minute. I have a buddy who was corrections officer. Went through a bad time and was prescribed some kind of SSRI...messed him up big. But he stopped within a few days and few days later he was fine. I'm not saying they're the happy pills some like to believe they are, but on the whole I think they do way more good, or more often nothing...than bad

If you've ever seen someone have an allergic reaction you'd want to outlaw shellfish too, right? It's kind of like that
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There's a world of difference between someone's body betraying them and a drug that can potentially make people go off the deep end / go full retard. I haven't heard about any school shooters correlated to like JIF or something. [rofl]
 

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