Another no-knock, and the table got turned

[Bonesinium]

It is because they do things that should be only used by militaries in wars and do so without training and planning on what they are about to do. I honestly think many of them think it will be fun and like a game. And when they get a submissive individual, it probably is to them, further reinforcing their opinion. When they run into someone who is not, it goes badly. They need to stick with playing the new Rainbow Six game.

 

[June4th]

Either that guy really knows how to shoot or the swat team needs a lot more practice. He manages to shoot 4 of them and not get shot himself?!

Police don't always win in such encounters: http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?n=09-7008&s=OK&d=41923

There are still more blue (innocent killed by police) than orange (police killed in raids), but the numbers are pretty close:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

 

[swatgig]

Frankly I'm suprised it didn't go like this:
*smashy smashy*
*bang bang*
police: GUN!!!
*bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang*

This is probably exactly how it went, but when the police went back for more ammo, they realized the homeowner was standing there, unharmed, with his hands in the air.

 

[mbullism]

It is a tragedy that the officer died, but breaking into someone home (announced ) is just a shooting/killing waiting to happen!

Going through a window is the WORST access point.... your going through a small open area with no cover, head/face first, no clear support fire from those with you, and your limited to one person going through the window at a time. That's what they commonly call a choke point! What kind of planning was this?

and seriously... who knocks on a window?

 

[Buggin]

Title: Bruce Lavoie

Type: Death of a nonviolent offender.

State: NH

Description: Police conduct a late-night raid on the Hudson, New Hampshire apartment of unarmed Bruce Lavoie, 35, his wife, and their three children. Police Sergeant Stephen Burke kicks open the Lavoie's front door with such vigor, his gun accidentally goes off in his hand, waking the Lavoies. When Bruce Lavoie rises from his bed to confront what he thinks are criminal intruders, he is shot and killed in front of his wife and three small children. Police find one marijuana cigarette in Lavoie's apartment. A subsequent investigation found police in the raid to be "blameless," though investigators did call the raid a "serious breach of police protocol." In the end, however, the investigation blamed Lavoie for his own death, concluding that he'd never have been shot had he "obeyed clear and concise commands to get down on the floor." In 1990, however, a judge ruling on a separate raid found that Hudson police "flagrantly" violated New Hampshire's state ban on no-knock drug raids, and ensuing newspaper reports found that police in Hudson and nearby communities routinely served drug warrants without first announcing themselves, a violation of state law. The city of Hudson eventually settled with Lavoie's family for $800,000. Sources: Tom West, "Hudson Police Blameless in Report," Manchester Union Leader, November 7, 1989. Pat Grossmith, "Police Didn't Knock First; Judge Rips Hudson Drug Raid. Chiefs Say Ruling Has Little Effect," Manchester Union Leader, July 31, 1990, p. 1. Pat Grossmith, "Some Police Use No-Knock Search Warrants," Manchester Union Leader, August 1, 1990, p. 1. Kris Frieswick, "Hudson Will Pay Widow $800,000; Bruce Lavoie Shot During 1989 Drug Raid," Manchester Union Leader, November 17, 1990, p. 1.

So, 800K to the widow and no repercussions to the dick that shot him or the dick that ordered it?

 

[StevieP]

This is a strange forum. Usually when someone does something stupid and pays a price, lots of people say 'PSGWSP'. Here, in a like situation, instead, the family should sue? WTF???


I'm talking about the cop who was killed, not the guy who got raided.

OK. When police play stupid games, they win stupid prizes. IN THE FACE!

 

[DispositionMatrix]

So, 800K to the widow and no repercussions to the dick that shot him or the dick that ordered it?

Standard fare for a settlement.

 

[mattyw]

So, 800K to the widow and no repercussions to the dick that shot him or the dick that ordered it?

can't even kick in a door without negligently firing your weapon.... should be grounds for termination alone

 

[GJH86]

So much fail in this situation. The whole reason behind no-knocks is the fact that the target is known to be armed and dangerous. Knowing that, why attempt a window entry? The person who planned this raid is far more responsible for the death of the officer than the man who shot him. In the confusion of late night hours I hear and see some ass-hat smashing in my window in an attempt to make violent dynamic entry I would respond in kind....an investigation should be launched but not as the guy cools his heels in the hoosegow. IMHO he acted reasonably to an unreasonable intrusion.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I am surprised he is alive, there wasn't a bag of drugs "found", and the story got out.

 

[Prepper]

Cops family should sue and anyone on the receiving end of these no knocks should sue (except the dogs cuz let's face it they won't make it) to get this guilty until proven innocent mentality to go away

In Mexico, the people of the town burn down the police station and kill all the cops. I am not suggesting this is a good idea.... Just some random piece of data to put out there showing a really bad example to not follow.

 

[NHAtHeart]

In Mexico, the people of the town burn down the police station and kill all the cops. I am not suggesting this is a good idea.... Just some random piece of data to put out there showing a really bad example to not follow.

You're not saying it's a bad idea either I notice...

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I'm amazed that this guy didn't end up dead with a surprise stash deposited in his home.

Me too.

 

[FalArAk]

He committed the worst offense there is. He challenged the authority of government.

An assault on the Kings Men is the same as an assault on the King himself.

 

[thormx538]

So, 800K to the widow and no repercussions to the dick that shot him or the dick that ordered it?

Hey, that's pretty good. That family in Weare only got $300k for the murd-- oops, I mean justifiable homicide in the line of duty of deJesus last summer.

 

[Hoover]

It's amazing. The .gov "thinks" you are guilty. They forcibly enter your home with weapons when they think you don't expect it. As most humans will do, they react to a violent confrontation with violence, then the .gov locks them up for their reaction to the violence they started.

'Merica. It's no wonder LEOs aren't liked a whole lot anymore.

I had a favorable view of LEO's until I was a firsthand recipient of their lies and bs. Now I am very unfavorable towards them unless proven they are one of the 1/3 or so I think are good people and respect the constitution and law.

 

[Hoover]

I understand the need to use SWAT or no knock raid for serious, dangerous people but the cops get a toy and they want to use it. They use their no knocks and SWAT for minor crimes or even allegations and that is absurd.

 

[AngelKing]

why are we still prosecuting drug crimes when the only potential victim is the user?

 

[Wrench75]

I imagine it went:

*smashy smashy*
*bang bang*
"police! drop the weapon!"
followed by compliance

here's an idea, lets change the order on that up a little and maybe no one dies? just a thought

Ya but then they may have a chance to flush their 1/4 oz of pot. What's a few lives if it get a few grams of plant off the streets?...

 

[NHAtHeart]

why are we still prosecuting drug crimes when the only potential victim is the user?

Because Statists gotta state...

It's a good way to legally break into any house in the United States. "We were told there were drugs in the house".

Pretty much every house in the country has either some form of drugs or drug manufacturing paraphernalia in it. So there is a reason to break down any door on any day.

 

[Evadd]

It's amazing. The .gov "thinks" you are guilty. They forcibly enter your home with weapons when they think you don't expect it. As most humans will do, they react to a violent confrontation with violence, then the .gov locks them up for their reaction to the violence they started.

You know what the solution will be? Even more military-style tactics. Instead of re-evaluating the no-knocks and thinking "hey, maybe this isn't a great idea", they will go the other way - citizens are even more dangerous than they thought, so they must up the ante - more flash-bangs, etc. And we know how that turned out for another family with an infant.

 

[mattyw]

You know what the solution will be? Even more military-style tactics. Instead of re-evaluating the no-knocks and thinking "hey, maybe this isn't a great idea", they will go the other way - citizens are even more dangerous than they thought, so they must up the ante - more flash-bangs, etc. And we know how that turned out for another family with an infant.

full on tanks and air support

 

[NHAtHeart]

full on tanks and air support

It's the only way to make sure the officers get home safe after a day of shooting dogs.

 

[economist]

The police state will recede only when the police themselves decide that these tactics are unacceptable. You can't have a police state without police -- without citizens willing to get paid to meddle, to intrude, and to attack their fellow men.

 

[Winchester73]

Doesn't anybody think things through any more? Wouldn't it be a more realistic and safer method to take the suspect into custody while they are at the grocery store, or mowing their lawn, before executing a search warrant? Wouldn't it have been both smarter and safer to have gone in through the front door after reading the warrant to the occupants of the home?

I really don't get it. Why do police officers feel the need to act as though they are at war? I know that I'm not the only one here on NES that has family and friends who have fought in real wars. They really don't want to bring that kind of misery down on other Americans nor do they want to be a part of it themselves.

The difference here seems to be that the police don't expect anybody to fight back, and when they do they are shocked. The most frightening part to me is that there are police officers out there who actually get off on raiding a fellow American in his home in a manner and with methods that belong in a battlefield.

It's been posted here before and it's worth re-posting:
More Mayberry, Less Fallujah.

 

[mattyw]

The police state will recede only when the police themselves decide that these tactics are unacceptable. You can't have a police state without police -- without citizens willing to get paid to meddle, to intrude, and to attack their fellow men.

there will always be volunteers lining up thanks to the paycheck and privileges you get with the badge, perceived or actual

 

[exo]

It is a tragedy that the officer died

It's only a tragedy if the person who died was heroic. I dunno about you, but invading someone's home "because drugs" doesn't meet my definition.

 

[TOM1960]

SWAT officer shot in the face breaking into window during no-knock raid

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/killeen-texas-fatal-raid/





Note: This is not the same no-knock case that resulted in no-prosecution of similar event: http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/texas-man-wont-prosecuted-killing-cop-knock-raid/#axzz35O0uMI3z

P.S. Killeen is a pretty badass name for a town, I think.

Police funeral. Probably half of the cops in the country will come in order to get some cheap face time. Bagpipes, governor's speech, LEO chiefs outcry against the private possession of firearms by us "civilians", ad nauseum! Did I miss any details? NES bretheren, please feel free to add anything that I might have missed!

 

[TOM1960]

Doesn't anybody think things through any more? Wouldn't it be a more realistic and safer method to take the suspect into custody while they are at the grocery store, or mowing their lawn, before executing a search warrant? Wouldn't it have been both smarter and safer to have gone in through the front door after reading the warrant to the occupants of the home?

I really don't get it. Why do police officers feel the need to act as though they are at war? I know that I'm not the only one here on NES that has family and friends who have fought in real wars. They really don't want to bring that kind of misery down on other Americans nor do they want to be a part of it themselves.

The difference here seems to be that the police don't expect anybody to fight back, and when they do they are shocked. The most frightening part to me is that there are police officers out there who actually get off on raiding a fellow American in his home in a manner and with methods that belong in a battlefield.

It's been posted here before and it's worth re-posting:
More Mayberry, Less Fallujah.

Texas Rangers tried to convince the ATF agents in Waco to do the same thing. Heck, these guys even told the ATF exactly when David Koresh and his top henchmen went into town to do the grocery shopping. These guys were creatures of habit and it could have made for an easy, non-violent arrest. But that is not what "heroics" are made of. ATF decided to do a classic John Wayne type of frontal assault and the price paid was huge. Many folks, including federal agents, were killed and seriously injured as a result.

 

[browncoat]

Doesn't anybody think things through any more? Wouldn't it be a more realistic and safer method to take the suspect into custody while they are at the grocery store, or mowing their lawn, before executing a search warrant? Wouldn't it have been both smarter and safer to have gone in through the front door after reading the warrant to the occupants of the home?

I really don't get it. Why do police officers feel the need to act as though they are at war? I know that I'm not the only one here on NES that has family and friends who have fought in real wars. They really don't want to bring that kind of misery down on other Americans nor do they want to be a part of it themselves.

The difference here seems to be that the police don't expect anybody to fight back, and when they do they are shocked. The most frightening part to me is that there are police officers out there who actually get off on raiding a fellow American in his home in a manner and with methods that belong in a battlefield.

It's been posted here before and it's worth re-posting:
More Mayberry, Less Fallujah.

You make a good point. Actually, the same thing can be said of high-speed chases - they are incredibly dangerous for the police and bystanders, and they are unnecessary given modern technology and the ability to just call ahead and have the suspect(s) stopped somewhere ahead. Police keep doing them though. At some point, we as citizens need to start demanding more transparency and less stupidity from police. Right now it seems like most people are still on the side of the police being within their rights to do these things to "keep us safe".