Air travel question

[jcr]

How does one travel by air with a replica firearm?

Of course, it's a no-no in carry on luggage.

But you can't tell the ariline that your are travelling with a firearm in you luggage, because that would be a lie.

They don't have a procedure for replicas.

If you just keep quiet, odds are your bags will be pulled apart.

 

[Moderator]

I would call ahead.

 

[USMC109]

I would call ahead.

+1!!!

 

[jhrosier]

The tsa will probably xray your bag at some time.
I will become inconvenient at that point.
If you are not already at the airport, send it ahead by priority mail.
Be aware that some locales regulate or prohibit replicas.
Check the laws at your destination.

Jack

 

[Jose]

Or just declare it at the ticket counter. Explain to them what it is and what it is not. If they want to treat it as a firearm, fine, so be it. It doesn't cost extra.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Jose is right on. Let the TSA guy make the decision. I assume that you are otherwise legal if they call it a firearm?

 

[jcr]

Let the TSA guy make the decision. I assume that you are otherwise legal if they call it a firearm?

One doesn't check baggage with TSA officials, although a airline agent certainly could call one over.

I know it's the law, but why would anyone care if there is an unloaded real gun in checked baggage?

It is a good idea for airlines to check for explosives or corrosives, but what's a gun in the hold gonna do by itself? Who'd pack a loaded (an by that I mean with a chambered round) anyway? But if they did, the hammer would have to be cocked and safety off for any jostling to fire it. If not that, the danger would be fire heatin the chambered round -- but at that point, I think the shot would be the much lesser worry.

So, if TSA gets involved, and they say "let's pretend" that the replica gun is a real gun, I suppose that the air traveller must provide hard sided, lockable case for it (even though the law doesn't require this). And if the air traveller, doesn't have that, their choice is to miss the flight, or "donate" the replica to the TSA's collection of stuff.

 

[vellnueve]

Or just declare it at the ticket counter. Explain to them what it is and what it is not. If they want to treat it as a firearm, fine, so be it. It doesn't cost extra.

+1

I actually declared some paintball equipment once and the ticket counter drone gave me a firearm tag just to be safe, but it doesn't take more than five minutes or so for them to clear.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Don't take a chance. If it looks like a gun or smells like a gun, put it in a hard locked case and declare it. I have flown with firearms including machine guns many times. They WILL have TSA check it out. If asked, TSA will wrap some of their tape around the case and it will be good to go to your final destination.

 

[zerodown]

It is a good idea for airlines to check for explosives or corrosives, but what's a gun in the hold gonna do by itself? Who'd pack a loaded (an by that I mean with a chambered round) anyway? But if they did, the hammer would have to be cocked and safety off for any jostling to fire it. If not that, the danger would be fire heatin the chambered round -- but at that point, I think the shot would be the much lesser worry.

Yeah but you can't fly with ammo in your bag or otherwise AND there are some stupid people out there. The airline person needs to check that it is unloaded, locked, and you don't have any ammo with it. I would declare it and make it easy for everyone. The process takes about 2 minute. They literally look at it, make sure it has a lock on it, and place a tag in your bag. Much easier than getting to the gate and being called back over the loud speaker b/c they found something. That's just my .02.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Again, TSA WILL inspect any declared firearm. Also, you can pack ammo in the same case as the gun. This all on their website.

 

[K-DUB]

One doesn't check baggage with TSA officials, although a airline agent certainly could call one over.

The agent at the luggage check in automatically calls the TSA person over when you tell them you're checking a firearm. They just have you show that it's not loaded, & have you lock it in your case. One-Eyed Jack is right, you can keep ammo in the same luggage as the locked firearm case. Not too much of a hassle, in my experience.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

1. TSA sometimes settles for the Xray check only on checked firearms. I've noticed much less of a tendancy to open the bag just because there is a gun in the past couple of years.

2. If you have a realistic replica, a problem *could* occur if the TSA examiner fails to identify it as a replica and also fails to find a declaration tag. Possible approachs are attach a "replica - not a real gun" notice to the gun, and also to be present at luggage screening to answer any questions.

3. There is no TSA regulation against properly packaged ammo in the same bag, but there is the occasional TSA staffer who thinks such a regulation exists.

 

[vellnueve]

To expound on that, sometimes the gate agent will just look at it themselves, and then put the tag in. They are not supposed to handle it according to most of the major airlines' regs. I've never had TSA look at mine at the counter or call me back.

Also, some airlines prohibit ammo in the same bag, but that's on an airline-to-airline basis, not a TSA/federal reg.

 

[springer]

Just declare it, and don’t worry about it. Traveling with a real firearm is no big deal. I flown 50+ times since 9/11 and I never have had a significant problem. You’re worrying about a non-issue.

Effective June 1st 2007, the TSA stopped inspecting firearms to determine if they were loaded. This is a nationwide policy.

The TSA does not look for firearms declaration tags. I always travel with pistols. I place them in a padded hardside pistol case inside a locked army duffel bag. I place the declaration tags inside the gun case, inside the duffle bag. The duffle bag is locked with a TSA padlock, but the gun case is locked (deliberately) with two “old fashioned” non TSA padlocks. In my lowly opinion, TSA approved padlocks on a gun case violate the spirit of Federal Air Regulation 108.203 which states, “The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the person checking the baggage retains the key or combination;” In addition, I place a tamper indicator seal (a colored cable tie) on the duffel bag clasp and on the gun case. While occasionally the duffle bag has been opened in the nether regions of the airport, so far (50+) trips the gun case has never been opened outside my control. The TSA would not have any idea weather I declared the firearm because the card is inside the locked, sealed case (although 25% of the time the ticket agent calls them and tells them). They can’t read the paper card on an x-ray machine. In addition, there is no Federal Regulation which requires you to place a firearms declaration card in your bag. Please read FAR 108.203 which states “The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded;” Simply by telling the ticket agent you want to declare your unloaded firearm, you have fulfilled the requirements set forth by the regulation.

For the full text of FAR 108.23 click on the link below:

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/....gpo.gov/cfr_2002/janqtr/pdf/14cfr108.203.pdf

 

[vellnueve]

True, but all the tags I've seen are made by the individual airlines which do have the right to require them.

 

[springer]

True, but all the tags I've seen are made by the individual airlines which do have the right to require them.

I just read the contracts of carriage of the following airlines:

Jet Blue
Northwest
Delta
US Air
Southwest

Only Jet Blue and US Air had a requirement above the FAR. These airlines require "a customer who presents baggage containing a firearm must sign a declaration that the firearm is unloaded"

They do not require you to do anything with the signed card. As I stated before, there is no requirement for a firearms declaration to be in your baggage

 

[isr2kba]

The TSA would not have any idea weather I declared the firearm because the card is inside the locked, sealed case (although 25% of the time the ticket agent calls them and tells them). They can’t read the paper card on an x-ray machine.

They would certainly know because those red declaration tags are x-ray visible, so the rumor goes. I'll try to confirm that when I can.

 

[MarkM]

I just read the contracts of carriage of the following airlines:

Jet Blue
Northwest
Delta
US Air
Southwest

Only Jet Blue and US Air had a requirement above the FAR. These airlines require "a customer who presents baggage containing a firearm must sign a declaration that the firearm is unloaded"

They do not require you to do anything with the signed card. As I stated before, there is no requirement for a firearms declaration to be in your baggage

What actually happens seem to vary from airport to airport and airline to airline.

For example in my recent trip to Arizona on southwest:

At Manchester airport I told the check-in agent I had to declare a firearm she said ok then promptly forgot what I told her, after she gave me my boarding pass I reminded her and she got out the form for me to fill out and put with the gun. She checked visually that the firearm was unloaded and that the ammunition was stored separately in it's original containers. The bag was then placed on the conveyor belt with the rest of the bags.

At Phoenix the check-in agent didn't inspect the firearm, I filled out the form, put it with the gun, and was then taken to a TSA inspection where they xrayed the bag.

I assume things will never be the same twice and as long as I end up with the airlines form with my gun (to prove I declared it) and with the gun locked inside my checked bag I am happy.

As an aside: I keep the gun in a locking case and secure the case to the frame of my bag with a cable and padlock - double protection against any thieves.

 

[vellnueve]

They would certainly know because those red declaration tags are x-ray visible, so the rumor goes. I'll try to confirm that when I can.

I believe that to be correct as well.

Either way, if they ask you to do it, you're gonna have to do it.

 

[jcr]

All good info regarding actual firearms. I know it is not overly difficult to travel by air with them.

But my OP was about traveling without a firearm, but with what panty wetters might think is a firearm.

I will not sign a declaration that I have an unloaded firearm when traveling with a replica.

First, I don't trust that (even an airlines printed) form has not been "federalized" by dint of being interstate air travel. It could be a perjury trap. A vindictive US Attorney could charge one with claiming a firearm when there was no firearm.

Second, if flying to a NYC destination (not connecting there) having declared a firearm(handgun), I could be arrested as I am not permitted to have a handgun there. When they see that it is not a firearm, the accusation would be that I pulled a "switch" and that I was a gun runner.

Third, upon return to Massachusetts with a "firearm" it is not impossible that our AG could chase me to FA-10 the non-firearm. There would be a paper trail of me admitting that I was traveling with an unloaded firearm.

Sure -- none of that would happen with reasonable people. Trusting that all I'd come in contact would be reasonable, is not something I'd like to risk.

I think the best approach would to tell the ticketing agent that I have a replica, that it is not a firearm. I would insist on not treating it like a real firearm. I fear that this might cause some delay, and I think I'd have to be prepared for that.

[This question was raised because a TSA fact sheet explicitly says that replicas cannot be taken on carry-on baggage (obviously, and no complaint), but that they are admissible in checked baggage. It just didn't say what the checked baggage proceedure was.]

 

[springer]

They would certainly know because those red declaration tags are x-ray visible, so the rumor goes. I'll try to confirm that when I can.

That’s BS in my opinion. The card that I was given by jet blue this weekend was normal white paper. Alaskan airlines gives you a small slip of normal paper, so thin that you can see through it. I doubt that their tags could even stop an alpha particle. Since I don’t place the card my baggage half of the time, and it is not required by FAR or contract of carriage, I do not think this is true. Why would they be searching for something that they don't require? Also once you get a card, what would stop you from using it repeatedly. As I stated before, they can't read the writing on the card in the case. No, they aren't using beryllium pens, I always sign it with my own pen. I will try to test this though.

What actually happens seem to vary from airport to airport and airline to airline.

I believe that to be correct as well.

Either way, if they ask you to do it, you're gonna have to do it.

The airlines contract of carriage and Federal Regulations do not vary from airport to airport, the chuckleheads employees that make things up does though. No airline has any language in their contract of carriage that requires the visual inspection of your firearm by any of their employees, and the FAR’s don’t require it. These are just myths perpetuated by chucklehead airline employees that have no idea what their companies policies are or what a FAR is. In 95% of scenarios when I am asked to do something stupid by airline employees or the TSA, after I whip out a copy of the airlines contract of carriage and or FAR 108.203, they back down. People perpetuating these fallacies doesn’t help. No one should open a gun case and handle a firearm in a crowded airport terminal. There have been several NDs in airports that I know of. With the gun handling skills that I see at most gun clubs, I don’t want to be around these people when they’re handling “unloaded” firearms in airports. I spoke with a US Air ticket agent once who had a “unloaded” .300 Win Mag Rifle discharged one foot over his head. He was quite insistent that he didn’t want to “inspect” my firearm to determine if it was unloaded. You are only required to fulfill your obligations in the contract of carriage, that’s why it’s a contract.

 

[springer]

All good info regarding actual firearms. I know it is not overly difficult to travel by air with them.

But my OP was about traveling without a firearm, but with what panty wetters might think is a firearm.

I will not sign a declaration that I have an unloaded firearm when traveling with a replica.

First, I don't trust that (even an airlines printed) form has not been "federalized" by dint of being interstate air travel. It could be a perjury trap. A vindictive US Attorney could charge one with claiming a firearm when there was no firearm.

Second, if flying to a NYC destination (not connecting there) having declared a firearm(handgun), I could be arrested as I am not permitted to have a handgun there. When they see that it is not a firearm, the accusation would be that I pulled a "switch" and that I was a gun runner.

Third, upon return to Massachusetts with a "firearm" it is not impossible that our AG could chase me to FA-10 the non-firearm. There would be a paper trail of me admitting that I was traveling with an unloaded firearm.

Sure -- none of that would happen with reasonable people. Trusting that all I'd come in contact would be reasonable, is not something I'd like to risk.

I think the best approach would to tell the ticketing agent that I have a replica, that it is not a firearm. I would insist on not treating it like a real firearm. I fear that this might cause some delay, and I think I'd have to be prepared for that.

[This question was raised because a TSA fact sheet explicitly says that replicas cannot be taken on carry-on baggage (obviously, and no complaint), but that they are admissible in checked baggage. It just didn't say what the checked baggage proceedure was.]

Don't declare it then. There is no reason why you need to declare it. I wouldn't tell the ticket agent anything. If you're in compliance with any applicable FAR's and the airlines contract of carriage, what do you have to worry about?

 

[vellnueve]

If you've already made up your mind, then why are you asking the question?

 

[S. Kelly]

Who would be travelling witha replica firearm? And why?

 

[M1911]

Since you have decided that you won't declare it, and TSA folks will likely have a hard time figuring out whether it is real or a replica, you are setting yourself up for trouble.

Why not avoid the hassle and just ship it to yourself via UPS?

 

[z0mbi]

Who would be travelling witha replica firearm? And why?

A friend of mine flew to SanDiego for the ComicCon last year, and he brought replica firearms with him because he went in costume as the cop from the Resident Evil games.

 

[tuna]

Do you have a "friend" (nasty boss or soon to be ex, maybe) that you could just slip it into thier bag and let them figure it out? Of course, if you really like it, you'll need two, just fly the day after him/her and see what happened.

 

[icyclefar]

Don't declare it then. There is no reason why you need to declare it. I wouldn't tell the ticket agent anything. If you're in compliance with any applicable FAR's and the airlines contract of carriage, what do you have to worry about?

Sure ........ my buddy who took his family on vacation and purchased the pair of six shooters for his 8 year old will tell you, it's not that big of a deal.

They removed him from the plane (with the wife and kids) and interrogated him just long enough for him to miss the flight. He did however get out on the very next flight ........... the very next day.

The pair of six shooters remained in New Mexico.

I'm sure the whole thing was just a fluke. I wouldn't worry about it. (pun intended)

Personally .......... I wouldn't pack a NERF gun. Life is complicated enough already.

 

[springer]

Sure ........ my buddy who took his family on vacation and purchased the pair of six shooters for his 8 year old will tell you, it's not that big of a deal.

They removed him from the plane (with the wife and kids) and interrogated him just long enough for him to miss the flight. He did however get out on the very next flight ........... the very next day.

The pair of six shooters remained in New Mexico.

I'm sure the whole thing was just a fluke. I wouldn't worry about it. (pun intended)

Personally .......... I wouldn't pack a NERF gun. Life is complicated enough already.

I have a very hard time believing that someone was detained for placing cap guns in a checked bag in New Mexico. This seems quite implausible to me.