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Yeah, but again, it is NOT that you are unlicensed, just because you do not have it with you.
I've got a sick snowblower carb to deal with, so I'm not going to look it up, but IIRC you MUST possess your LTC anytime you have possession of firearms/ammo/etc. Possession without it (left it at home) I BELIEVE is indeed actionable (illegal) but I'll let someone else find the cite.
IIRC merely walking down a street doesn't require you produce a DL. However I KNOW (heard it on the scanner) that my PD harassed a TV reporter numerous times and demanded his DL even though when they found him he was standing in a parking lot and not driving anything. They ran him thru 3 times that day, ckg for warrants, priors, etc. IMNSHO that is pure harassment (he had initially produced a press pass that ID'd who he worked for and press passes are issued by MSP), but done all the time. My PD demands DLs even if they are responding to any call at a person's home, and they run them thru all the databases . . . it is SOP here.
So, the law is one thing but when Johnny Law decides it is something else, you don't get much support for complaining (unless you want the long slog thru the court system suing the department later).
Any person who, while not being within the limits of his own property or residence, or such person whose property or residence is under lawful search, and who is not exempt under this section, shall on demand of a police officer or other law enforcement officer, exhibit his license to carry firearms, or his firearm identification card or receipt for fee paid for such card, or, after January first, nineteen hundred and seventy, exhibit a valid hunting license issued to him which shall bear the number officially inscribed of such license to carry or card if any. Upon failure to do so such person may be required to surrender to such officer said firearm, rifle or shotgun which shall be taken into custody as under the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine D, except that such firearm, rifle or shotgun shall be returned forthwith upon presentation within thirty days of said license to carry firearms, firearm identification card or receipt for fee paid for such card or hunting license as hereinbefore described. Any person subject to the conditions of this paragraph may, even though no firearm, rifle or shotgun was surrendered, be required to produce within thirty days said license to carry firearms, firearm identification card or receipt for fee paid for such card, or said hunting license, failing which the conditions of section one hundred and twenty-nine D will apply. Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from being prosecuted for any violation of this chapter.
1) Do you remember when it used to be that you had to always have part of the pistol exposed? That was so you could not be hiding anything. Times have changed, I guess.
I forget where I read it, but someone astutely pointed out that "back in the day" everyone walked around with their gun on their hip, only bad guys with evil intent concealed their guns.
This might be it: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129C
It looks like, when you show your LTC you get your gun back, forthwith.
From what I have read they can only demand you produce your LTC if they believe a crime has been committed and simply carrying a gun is not a crime, (or enough of a crime!)
(See quote from Rob Boudrie.)
In the matter of producing a driver's license, the cop is supposed to have stopped you for a violation and therefore you have to produce your DL.
Whether its right or not is irrelevant on the ground, you have fun with that, telling them "no". The cops that actually understand the law will not ask or they'll do it via social engineering.
In the matter of producing a driver's license, the cop is supposed to have stopped you for a violation and therefore you have to produce your DL.
Section 25. Any person who, while operating or in charge of a motor vehicle, shall refuse, when requested by a police officer, to give his name and address or the name and address of the owner of such motor vehicle, or who shall give a false name or address, or who shall refuse or neglect to stop when signalled to stop by any police officer who is in uniform or who displays his badge conspicuously on the outside of his outer coat or garment, or who refuses, on demand of such officer, to produce his license to operate such vehicle or his certificate of registration, or to permit such officer to take the license or certificate in hand for the purpose of examination, or who refuses, on demand of such officer, to sign his name in the presence of such officer, and any person who on the demand of an officer of the police or other officer mentioned in section twenty-nine or authorized by the registrar, without a reasonable excuse fails to deliver his license to operate motor vehicles or the certificate of registration of any motor vehicle operated or owned by him or the number plates furnished by the registrar for said motor vehicle, or who refuses or neglects to produce his license when requested by a court or trial justice, shall be punished by a fine of one hundred dollars.
I forget where I read it, but someone astutely pointed out that "back in the day" everyone walked around with their gun on their hip, only bad guys with evil intent concealed their guns.
Before my time with firearms (mid-1970s) and I never saw any non-LE open carry handguns in MA, only long guns. However, as a kid I had a neighbor who would carry his .22 target pistol (unloaded) in his hand and walk down the street with it to the sandpit he shot in. Nobody blinked.
This appears to be another of the limitless conundrums with MA gun laws. On the one hand, it appears if you do not have your LTC/FID with you, the LEO confiscates your firearm until you produce your LTC/FID. On the other hand, the very last sentence states:
"Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from being prosecuted for any violation of this chapter."
So the question is, if the LEO confiscates your firearm because you do not have your LTC/FID on you, you can also be charged with violating the chapter; yes/no?
Whether its right or not is irrelevant on the ground, you have fun with that, telling them "no". The cops that actually understand the law will not ask or they'll do it via social engineering.
My point exactly!
Much of this thread reminds me of this video.
It's Portland, ME, and it's been posted here previously:
wonder how that would play out in Mass? any volunteers?
I'm not one to push too many buttons but I've been known to push a few.
With that said, I'd like to have the decision in Commonwealth vs. Couture handy and ask what crime the po po suspects me of in the event they demand to see my LTC.
BTW I did have a handgun in police possession when I passed it through the the x-ray machine at MA DPS in Boston. They wouldn't store it for me and they gave it back and DID NOT ask or demand to see an LTC.
Also, I have ha
They don't need to suspect you of a crime to demand to see your LTC. .
Were you denied entry or sent in with the gun?BTW I did have a handgun in police possession when I passed it through the the x-ray machine at MA DPS in Boston. They wouldn't store it for me and they gave it back and DID NOT ask or demand to see an LTC.
Were you denied entry or sent in with the gun?
How do you explain Commonwealth vs. Couture?
Mimi
I didn't read anything in that which would suggest that they need to stop you for investigation of a crime before they can demand your license. Before they can search a vehicle, yes. If an officer sees you with a firearm he can not proceed on the assumption that you are committing a crime. He can however require you to produce your license. If you can't do that, you can be arrested.
At least that's how I read it.
. A police officer's knowledge that an individual is carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish probable cause to believe that the individual is illegally carrying that gun.
You might be right. All I have is this from Comm. vs. Couture:
A police officer's knowledge that an individual is carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish probable cause to believe that the individual is illegally carrying that gun.
So, I would be tempted to ask, "What crime do you suspect me of?" And mention that in Comm vs. Couture The judges wrote that, A police officer's knowledge that an individual is carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish probable cause to believe that the individual is illegally carrying that gun.
I think that you are reading that backwards. If you are carrying a firearm, while the officer does not have probable cause to believe you are committing a crime, he can still demand that you produce your license. If you can't then he can arrest you for that.
You can ask him that question, but he is not required to answer it. You still have to produce your license. If you can't, see my answer above.
Can you fight that and win? Maybe, but as the saying goes, "You might be the rap, but you won't beat the ride."
That's what I'm looking for. (And don't get me wrong, I expect it to exist!) I'm looking for the law that says I have to produce an LTC on demand.
ETA: I found a thread that deals with this here:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/33800-Cop-demands-LTC
I would be tempted to ask a cop a few questions and quote Comm vs. Couture before handing over LTC and staying out of jail.
My guess, and IANAL, is that demanding an LTC is in fact a search.
That's what I'm looking for. (And don't get me wrong, I expect it to exist!) I'm looking for the law that says I have to produce an LTC on demand.
ETA: I found a thread that deals with this here:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/33800-Cop-demands-LTC
I would be tempted to ask a cop a few questions and quote Comm vs. Couture before handing over LTC and staying out of jail.
My guess, and IANAL, is that demanding an LTC is in fact a search.
Although after reading Couture it does seem that it may contradict the requirement to present an LTC if asked... assuming you are asked only on the basis your gun is seen.
Mike
If you wanna martyr yourself and lose your license and go to jail over something there are probably better things to fight for. Like an adjustable stock.
That's what I'm looking for. (And don't get me wrong, I expect it to exist!) I'm looking for the law that says I have to produce an LTC on demand.
ETA: I found a thread that deals with this here:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/33800-Cop-demands-LTC
I would be tempted to ask a cop a few questions and quote Comm vs. Couture before handing over LTC and staying out of jail.
My guess, and IANAL, is that demanding an LTC is in fact a search.
You can ask all the questions you want, most LE will have ZERO knowledge of Couture ( Randy Couture maybe).
Its an officer safety thing. You dont have to be suspected of a crime or any of that stuff.
Demanding an LTC is the same as demanding a DL.
Hypothetical: You produce your license and then do not allow the officer to possess it to check if for validity, or you produce your license, hand it over and said "See Ya!" as you aren't being detained. ...
... I would bet dollars to doughnuts (if there is still any differential there) ...
I think that is exactly what is going on. The law says you have to produce an LTC and case law indicates otherwise.
Sure, or show it through the plastic window in a wallet, or hold it up to be seen but not surrender it.What do you mean? Hold it against the glass of your rolled down 1/2 inch car window?
Funny timing on use of this word.
All cops think I'm honest and most friends would be amazed to find out I have guns.
I wouldn't make a very good test case because I would be amazed if a cop asked for my LTC.
On a few occasions I've had people offer up their LTC's with their driver's license on traffic stops. If you're carrying concealed lawfully I couldn't care less. Granted my response is "have a nice day" and immediately let them go. I imagine that would be the response you would normally get.
I've never encountered a situation in my career where I had to demand an LTC. Twice I've encountered people who told me they were carrying in non-traffic stop situations. Both times they produced it for me without asking after informing me they had an firearm on their person. Once a woman was in a car accident and was being transported to the hospital. She told me she was carrying a loaded P238 in her purse. Since it wouldn't be under her direct control I seized it and it was secured in a property locker at the station and she picked it up the next day. The other incident was a domestic at a bar. When I first got there the male involved immediately told me he had a loaded handgun in his back left pocket. I seized it until it was determined nothing criminal had occurred. I returned it to him and he went on his way.
Both situations went fine, no dogs were shot, if you're going to question how it was handled, look at the alternatives. The woman gets an MRI and a nurse discovers the handgun while putting the woman's property in a bag. Campus police get called, maybe there's a lockdown and it gets blown out of proportion? Or the guy doesn't disclose that he's carrying and its discovered during a pat frisk. Then the fact that he's had a few beers gets brought into question.
Running a license plate or driver's license will not notify the officer that the person has an LTC. The software we used at my previous agency would notify me only if the person was a resident of the town and had a license issued through our agency. At my current agency the only way for me to know is if the dispatcher specifically searches those parameters and that doesn't happen on a day to day basis. Most of them don't even know how to.
Sure, or show it through the plastic window in a wallet, or hold it up to be seen but not surrender it.
It would certainly be a provocative action, likely to cause affront to to be taken by the officer. Nobody (cop or not) likes to be challenged in silly ways.
But that's what happens every time someone exercises their rights in the face of authority.
"Am I being detained" causes the same reaction in every video I've watched (except once).