Did you not dry fire the gun at the dealer? Seems like you knew what you were getting and took it home anyways.
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9 mm 92FS vs. P226 vs. M&P
- Thread starter srv1761
- Start date
Did you not dry fire the gun at the dealer? Seems like you knew what you were getting and took it home anyways.
flintoid
Banned
yes, I did. But since it was my first 20 lb trigger pistol, I didn't know how it'd affect my shooting.
On the bright side, after the m&p purchase, I then knew exactly what kind of shooting I could expect when I bought this on the internet:
turbo38gn
NES Member
ok, gotta throw in my 2 bits.... Apex Tactical..... ok, how bout we look at why did they come up with a better trigger control... and put so much on the line... was it because they thought the M&P was such a POS they could make money improving the trigger.. ? I put money on they liked the gun, not a little, a lot.. and Randy figured by improving the trigger was a homerun... because the gun had so many positive points. That, in a nutshell, speaks volumnes to me. I bought my 1st M&P40fs over a year ago, can't tell you how many rounds I've put down range, but it's many thousands. I heard about the APex sear, installed it, liked it lots, but, I was shooting bullseyes before and bullseyes after installing. By the way, all 4 of my M&P's are Ma compliant guns. I have nothing bad to say about any other brands out there, I only know, my M&P guns are not junk.. or anywhere near that term. It is comical and sad at the same time when I read the venomous responses from the same few guys on this board. They, in my opinion have no real data to share or support their comments and seem to exaggerate they negativity more everytime they share. As if it adds validity to their POV.. sad, keep it up, It only makes you guys look less believable in anything you share on other topics. As for the 10 round mags, amazing, like it makes a difference. Sure we all think bigger is better, but really, I believe, if I can't take care of business with 10 rounds and a back up magazine.. ...
OP... shoot em, buy what feels right... and don't look back
OP... shoot em, buy what feels right... and don't look back
yes, I did. But since it was my first 20 lb trigger pistol, I didn't know how it'd affect my shooting.
On the bright side, after the m&p purchase, I then knew exactly what kind of shooting I could expect when I bought this on the internet:
So what you are saying, is that after getting screwed by one tranny, you went and order another online.
flintoid
Banned
That is exactly what I am saying. Except the second tranny wasn't that much of a "surprise." And he was $400 cheaper. Which I liked.
They realized that the trigger was a huge turd in an otherwise halfway decent pistol (one that was rapidly gaining in popularity) and they had a smart firing solution to fix that trigger.
This is the dumbest argument I've ever heard to justify a crappy magazine. It's not the capacity that really bothers me- S&W is stuck with that because of the laws here.... and there's little they can do about that issue. It's the shoddy implementation that's the issue, and this issue has been reported here several times already.
-Mike
turbo38gn
NES Member
Hmmmmmmm, I don't think so Moke.... in fact, I'm certain.. no argument here, just the facts.
bout the only dumb arguments I see come from you... over the top comments like your descriptive remarks makes it true. But it's ok, you have your way, I have mine... any little hiccup you can focus on... go for it. Every gun out there has em....
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
flintoid
Banned
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...chusetts-Compliant-M-amp-P9-Magazine-Question
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...video-on-modifying-M-amp-P-magazine-followers
Just the facts? JFC.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...video-on-modifying-M-amp-P-magazine-followers
Just the facts? JFC.
Hmmmmmmm, I don't think so Moke.... in fact, I'm certain.. no argument here, just the facts.
bout the only dumb arguments I see come from you... over the top comments like your descriptive remarks makes it true. But it's ok, you have your way, I have mine... any little hiccup you can focus on... go for it. Every gun out there has em....
Well it seems like I'm the only guy here that actually owns all three of those pistols (92fs, Sig and M&P - a 9mm Pro), so I guess I'll offer my observations to add to the pile. I will make no MA-specific comments since I don't live there and those laws don't apply to me, I'll just comment on the guns.
The Beretta is very accurate, very reliable, and also very big and heavy. Probably the softest shooting 9mm around due to its size, weight, and locking block design. However the trigger in DA is quite long and heavy and if yours doesn't already have tritium sights like mine did than they are a pain to add if you want them. A good trigger job would help but it will still not equal what a striker-type pistol like a glock or S&W can be with tuning. I've seen multiple people engage the safety during clearance drills in training so that can be another issue if you are using it for self-defense. Built like a tank but not a great pistol to carry.
The SIG is a bit smaller and lighter but still a fairly decent size pistol. Again mine has the E2 grip so it is very comfortable but even without that the original grip frame is much better for smaller hands than the Beretta. Plus you have the option of the short trigger which can help as well. I didn't find the trigger on mine much better than the Beretta out of the box, but I had a trigger job done by Bill Springfield and it is very good now. He can do the same for the Beretta but I want to keep my 92 stock for training reasons. In addition to the smaller grip the lack of the slide-mounted safety/decocker makes clearing drills problem-free and the decocker is easy to reach. The grip frame is lower than a Glock or M&P so it does have more of a top-heavy feel and more muzzle flip as well. Still controllable, but a noticeable difference. Also the sights are dovetailed and therefore easy to replace. Overall I think it's superior to the Beretta. Here in the land of the free it's generally a bit more expensive but on the used market the prices are very similar.
Finally we have the S&W M&P 9. The grip on it is easily the best of the three, very comfortable with the medium for my average hand. Mine is the pro model so the trigger was good out of the box, as good as the factory single action in the 92 and SIG. My experience with my Glock 34 tells me that I can easily get this trigger to the 3lb range with the Apex competition kit, and it will be superior to the SIG and Beretta triggers as well as eliminating the DA/SA transition. Sights are also easy to change like the SIG. Intrinsic accuracy is fine, although probably slightly inferior to the previous two, however the superior trigger makes actually attaining rapid accurate hits much easier. Also the low bore axis allows for low muzzle flip despite the light weight. The price is also the lowest of the three. In fact, if you're MIL or LEO, you can get a brand new standard model (not the Pro) with 3 mags for $350 with the current rebate, $400 if you want night sights. No other pistol other than Glock comes close to that price.
Overall I would probably give the nod to the M&P with a trigger update. A good trigger makes a huge difference, especially for newer shooters trying to learn other fundamentals. Even with the cost of the Apex kit, it will likely still be less than the Beretta or SIG and will make for a great pistol to learn, train and compete with if one desires to.
The Beretta is very accurate, very reliable, and also very big and heavy. Probably the softest shooting 9mm around due to its size, weight, and locking block design. However the trigger in DA is quite long and heavy and if yours doesn't already have tritium sights like mine did than they are a pain to add if you want them. A good trigger job would help but it will still not equal what a striker-type pistol like a glock or S&W can be with tuning. I've seen multiple people engage the safety during clearance drills in training so that can be another issue if you are using it for self-defense. Built like a tank but not a great pistol to carry.
The SIG is a bit smaller and lighter but still a fairly decent size pistol. Again mine has the E2 grip so it is very comfortable but even without that the original grip frame is much better for smaller hands than the Beretta. Plus you have the option of the short trigger which can help as well. I didn't find the trigger on mine much better than the Beretta out of the box, but I had a trigger job done by Bill Springfield and it is very good now. He can do the same for the Beretta but I want to keep my 92 stock for training reasons. In addition to the smaller grip the lack of the slide-mounted safety/decocker makes clearing drills problem-free and the decocker is easy to reach. The grip frame is lower than a Glock or M&P so it does have more of a top-heavy feel and more muzzle flip as well. Still controllable, but a noticeable difference. Also the sights are dovetailed and therefore easy to replace. Overall I think it's superior to the Beretta. Here in the land of the free it's generally a bit more expensive but on the used market the prices are very similar.
Finally we have the S&W M&P 9. The grip on it is easily the best of the three, very comfortable with the medium for my average hand. Mine is the pro model so the trigger was good out of the box, as good as the factory single action in the 92 and SIG. My experience with my Glock 34 tells me that I can easily get this trigger to the 3lb range with the Apex competition kit, and it will be superior to the SIG and Beretta triggers as well as eliminating the DA/SA transition. Sights are also easy to change like the SIG. Intrinsic accuracy is fine, although probably slightly inferior to the previous two, however the superior trigger makes actually attaining rapid accurate hits much easier. Also the low bore axis allows for low muzzle flip despite the light weight. The price is also the lowest of the three. In fact, if you're MIL or LEO, you can get a brand new standard model (not the Pro) with 3 mags for $350 with the current rebate, $400 if you want night sights. No other pistol other than Glock comes close to that price.
Overall I would probably give the nod to the M&P with a trigger update. A good trigger makes a huge difference, especially for newer shooters trying to learn other fundamentals. Even with the cost of the Apex kit, it will likely still be less than the Beretta or SIG and will make for a great pistol to learn, train and compete with if one desires to.
turbo38gn
NES Member
Your point?........... soooooo a magazine issue out of a whole line of guns makes it what..... ?
like I said, sad and funny at the same time, I shake my head in disbelief then laugh just because of the attempts to maime are laughable... This last experienced with the 3 guns write up says it all.... they are all good guns, none are perfect.. shoot em and buy what feels good.. getting an unbiased opinion on here can be a slippery ride, but I think most can see the trees through the forest!!!
wolf223's 92FS doesn't work right because all he knows how to operate is PowerPoint.
I did have some issues with the M9 overseas. The main one being the magazines are wicked pieces of shit.
My 92FS works well. It has a "ok" trigger, decent sights and is easy to use for new shooters. I put about 1,100 rounds through mine between cleanings and it was acting odd at that point, namely ejecting brass into my forehead.
My biggest gripe with the 92FS is its slide size. it has a hard to grab slide, making it difficult to clear fast or fix a malfunction. I don't like the safety either.
I did have some issues with the M9 overseas. The main one being the magazines are wicked pieces of shit.
My 92FS works well. It has a "ok" trigger, decent sights and is easy to use for new shooters. I put about 1,100 rounds through mine between cleanings and it was acting odd at that point, namely ejecting brass into my forehead.
My biggest gripe with the 92FS is its slide size. it has a hard to grab slide, making it difficult to clear fast or fix a malfunction. I don't like the safety either.
All guns you mentioned are good, all also have thier own issues: The Beretta is a good gun, but its on the large side, is complex in design and is based on 1970's technology. The beretta's trigger is improved by the addition of a D main spring, this helps to smooth out and lower the double action trigger pull. Unknown to most is that Beretta offers a short trigger option for the 92 series similar to the short trigger option Sig Offers. If you get a Beretta make sure you update the locking block to the newest design, it will be radiused on the ends, Also beretta recomends you scrape the carbon from you extractor every 1500 rounds.
The sig is solid but suffers from a high bore axis and muzzle flip is more noticeable in the Sig. I dont trust current Sigs as I feel the quality is suspect. Older SIgs have a much better build quality. I know of one major local city Dept that has got rid of 2 year old Sig P-229 Daks becuse of reliability problems. The new Sig does not build guns to the same quality as the Sig of Old.
THe M&P is a modern design, has a low bore axis and great ergonomics. The triggers are Ok on Free state models and suck on ther MA versions. A trigger Job by Derr or Apex trigger parts solves this issue. From an armorers stand point both the Sig and Beretta Suck compared to the M&P, both utilize lots of small parts and roll pins etc. Other then the sear block assembly the M&P is simple to disassemble. In regards to the sear Block S&W recomends you just replace the whole assembly instead of taking it apart. The newest version of the M&P with the new tacticle reset trigger is supposed to be "More Glock Like then a Glock" I imagine once these come out the gun will sell even better. The M&P is not the Piece of crap people make it out to be. People in the know like Kyle lamb and Pat Rogers speak highly of them and carry them. In the end, get which ever one fits your hand the best, none of them are perfect and all have thier issues. YMMV
The sig is solid but suffers from a high bore axis and muzzle flip is more noticeable in the Sig. I dont trust current Sigs as I feel the quality is suspect. Older SIgs have a much better build quality. I know of one major local city Dept that has got rid of 2 year old Sig P-229 Daks becuse of reliability problems. The new Sig does not build guns to the same quality as the Sig of Old.
THe M&P is a modern design, has a low bore axis and great ergonomics. The triggers are Ok on Free state models and suck on ther MA versions. A trigger Job by Derr or Apex trigger parts solves this issue. From an armorers stand point both the Sig and Beretta Suck compared to the M&P, both utilize lots of small parts and roll pins etc. Other then the sear block assembly the M&P is simple to disassemble. In regards to the sear Block S&W recomends you just replace the whole assembly instead of taking it apart. The newest version of the M&P with the new tacticle reset trigger is supposed to be "More Glock Like then a Glock" I imagine once these come out the gun will sell even better. The M&P is not the Piece of crap people make it out to be. People in the know like Kyle lamb and Pat Rogers speak highly of them and carry them. In the end, get which ever one fits your hand the best, none of them are perfect and all have thier issues. YMMV
Good post...Love my M&P...
I haven't read the other comments and am giving you my two cents.
Beretta 92FS - why?! Softest recoiling 9 mm full sized IMHO that I have ever shot so it stays on target when you need to shoot fast. Hi-cap pre-ban mags are more readily available, much easier to find and much less $$ than others. I would have added the Glock 17 over the M&P myself, LOL. Given the choice between a Glock and Beretta is tough, because I like them BOTH. Downside to G17 is cost of the pre-ban hi-caps running almost $35-50 a pop where as you can find lots of the Beretta ones for $20-25 used. Plus side to G17 is has less parts compared to 92FS. I've not know any one to "wear" either one out before.
Nothing is perfect of course or else we would all own the same car!![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
BTW: Keltec Sub 2000 takes either Beretta OR Glock mags, too!![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Beretta 92FS - why?! Softest recoiling 9 mm full sized IMHO that I have ever shot so it stays on target when you need to shoot fast. Hi-cap pre-ban mags are more readily available, much easier to find and much less $$ than others. I would have added the Glock 17 over the M&P myself, LOL. Given the choice between a Glock and Beretta is tough, because I like them BOTH. Downside to G17 is cost of the pre-ban hi-caps running almost $35-50 a pop where as you can find lots of the Beretta ones for $20-25 used. Plus side to G17 is has less parts compared to 92FS. I've not know any one to "wear" either one out before.
Nothing is perfect of course or else we would all own the same car!
BTW: Keltec Sub 2000 takes either Beretta OR Glock mags, too!
- Joined
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If you got man hands go with the 92fs. It's big.
W
wolf223
egg head.
even your mighty Glocks FINALLY caught on and made a gun with replacable pack straps.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
you can shoot my M&P and you'll see. the trigger is around 6 pounds.
anywho, as to the 92FS / M9 being "softest recoiling" i think any full size or compact 9mm pistol is "soft"... my G17, G19, hi power, 92FS all feel the same.... the M&P too. that's why i love them all. the only one i notice a mild kick is my PPS in 9mm. -to be expected.
W
wolf223
hi point. it satire as usual. i'm like the joker on here 2nd in place behind Dench.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
oh and probably MichaelJR
I have owned/shot all 3 guns. I'll comment on details posted.
1. 92: You WILL get burnt by the slide mounted safety/decocker. I've put thousands of rounds thru this gun and STILL activate the safety during malfunction drills. Sights: Like it. Trigger: Like it. Bore axis: Like it. Mags: No problems.
2. Sig.: Sights: Like it . Trigger: Like it. Bore axis: In your hand it's high but for me at the range actually shooting the gun I dont seem to notice it. Mags: Like it. I find both the 92 & Sig in 9mm to be big & soft shooting.
3. M&P: Sights: Dont care for 3 Dot but this is an easy fix. Trigger: Knew is was terrible out of the box. Easy fix w/ APEX. Bore axis: Like it. Grip: Like it. Mags: PROBLEM. I knew the trigger was going to be an issue but not the mags. It may be an easy fix (File down) but my gripe is from the angle of being a MA Consumer. Consumers have Rights. S&W knows these mags are border line defective. Buying a gun is nearly a blide purchase. You cant walk into a shop and, "Try it out". You cant return it, you cant exchange it. You just hope if there is a problem the maker will stand behind it. In this case they just ignore you. Would you buy a car that says it seat's 6, only to discover, (AFTER you buy it) that is really only seats 5 unless you take apart the seat assembly, file it down, re-install it and hope it works safely and properly THE WAY IT SHOULD ?
It may be an easy fix, but do you see my point ?
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I read and understood the OP and how he has narrowed his selection choices down to the three pistols discussed in this thread.
OP: There are other 9mm pistols out there.
I would recommend that you look for a 3rd generation Smith and Wesson semi auto pistol. With very little effort you can find a 5906 with comparable features to the Beretta/Sig, better build quality than the M&P, available high capacity magazines, a decent trigger, and the S&W warranty for between $350-450. IMO, this is a better choice for a first pistol. Put the money saved towards ammo and get out there and practice.
Chris
OP: There are other 9mm pistols out there.
I would recommend that you look for a 3rd generation Smith and Wesson semi auto pistol. With very little effort you can find a 5906 with comparable features to the Beretta/Sig, better build quality than the M&P, available high capacity magazines, a decent trigger, and the S&W warranty for between $350-450. IMO, this is a better choice for a first pistol. Put the money saved towards ammo and get out there and practice.
Chris
TBalls
NES Member
This is supposed to be news? At its most basic level, NES is pretty much "boys with toys", and quite frankly that's why I like it. Sure, there's a ton of knowledge and useful info, but the banter it what makes this place work.
And as far as the OP, I'd probably go with the M&P (with a trig job). The Sig and Beretta are both excellent (and every firearm has its foibles), but personally I just prefer the striker action to the DA/SA of those two. I may re-evaluate my position if I were to get my hands on a DAO Sig.........
I owned an M&P 40c (sold it to finish a rifle). I carried it in work every day and put about 1500 rounds through it. It shot well, no issues, and other than a sucky trigger feel and a pain to takedown, it was a good gun. It did lack quality in a few areas.... the weak ass recoil spring for one. They are not junk... they are what they are.
I own a 92fs and it is a great gun! though it is a little picky with some hollowpoints (i believe it is more of a mag issue). Reliable, easy to take down but you have to keep the extractor clean. The sights are OK, a little loose for my taste and i like the trigger.
I am selling my 92fs to put the money towards a Sig P220. I am really more of a glock guy but i like to be well rounded and the p220 is a little slimmer than my G21 so it should be easier to carry. Sig performance is legendary.
Shoot them all. Then buy a Glock for your first gun.
I own a 92fs and it is a great gun! though it is a little picky with some hollowpoints (i believe it is more of a mag issue). Reliable, easy to take down but you have to keep the extractor clean. The sights are OK, a little loose for my taste and i like the trigger.
I am selling my 92fs to put the money towards a Sig P220. I am really more of a glock guy but i like to be well rounded and the p220 is a little slimmer than my G21 so it should be easier to carry. Sig performance is legendary.
Shoot them all. Then buy a Glock for your first gun.
beaker
NES Member
I love my P226. My brother has a 92FS and I've shot both side by side. The Sig wins IMHO. I have a short reset trigger on my P226, I like it better than the 92FS. Both nice guns however, both good choices for a full size pistol. Which one do you like better?
It's the new followers, it is a real problem.
What is the "pain to takedown" you speak of?
Dream to Dream
NES Member
To my understanding, if you have a magazine release safety installed on your M&P and do not remove it (
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
) it is impossible to field strip the pistol without using the takedown lever.If you know of a way to take down the pistol in another manner, I would be interested to know.
