.40 S&W vs. .45 ACP

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Ok, this one has been a question gnawing at my mind for a bit, but how good is a .40 S&W for personal protection. Though I am young I am still of the .45 ACP round for stopping power and would prefer something like that if possible, but I'm now thinking of the 'what if' where I do have a friend who has a ton of pistols and does occaisionally sell them at 'discount' to friends from time to time.
 
I trust my life to 40S&W every time I carry. So does the FBI and a good amount (if not all) law enforcement agency's.

I have faith it the round.

Adam
 
The .40 has stopping power close enough to the .45 to be considered equivient.

Far more important is the placment of hits, number of hits, and your tactics.
Use cover, shoot well, and shoot till the threat stops
 
Pilgrim said:
I find the .40 to have more snap to it's recoil making it harder to get back on target than the .45

At first, I did too, but I overcame it. Practice, practice, practice. It also depends on the weight of the gun for the recoil as well.

Hubby had a Megastar .45. I *LOVED* that gun, but it was a huge gun and not easily concealable. It was also very heavy and had less recoil than my .38. I was bummin when he sold it, but it only came with one mag and the replacements, if you could find them, were $100 (if you were REAL lucky) on up (which was more like it)....given that you could find them at all.

I've shot a few other .45's (1 Kimber which I had to wipe the drool off of when I was finished and a couple Colts) and I really didn't notice a major difference between their recoil and my .40. But...that's me. :D
 
Back after the fiasco in Miami , the FBI did a series of tests regarding handgun ballistics and found that the 10mm round had the best penetration and terminal balistics of all the configurations they tried.

The problem was that the 10mm packed a hell of a punch in recoil compared to other rounds. So, to combat that, they started loading the 10mm a little lighter.

Well, it didn't take the industry long to realize that if LE was going to load light, they didn't need such a large case. And thus the .40 S&W was born by taking the 10mm bullet and sticking it into a shorter case.

As for the differences...

Energy on target, and thus the amount of damage a round can do is made up of the weight of the projectile and the speed at which it impacts. The 9mm crowd talk about the fast and light nature of the round and the .45 folk talk about the slow and heavy. The .40 is kind of in the middle. It has both speed and mass although not nearly as high as it's two neighbors. If you look at the 'power factor' of the shooting games, you will see that the .40 isn't really as much energy as a .45, but is significantly more than a 9mm. If you look at a chronograph, you'll see that the .40 tavels closer to the 9mm in speed than the .45.

In ballistic tests, the .40 usually penetrates to the 90+% of a .45 and in the hollow point mushrooms with consistacy of a 9mm. In fact, some of the latest .40 rounds will mushroom to about the same diameter that a .45 will mushroom.

In practice, it's really the skill of the shooter that will matter most. Good solid hits will stop the attack with any of the rounds.

The .40 is a higher pressure round. As a result, there is no +P and reloaders should use care in measuring their powder to not exceed the SAMMI pressure spec of the round.

In terms of ammo, the average .40 will hold one or two rounds more than a similar size .45, but a 9mm may hold as many as 3 or 4 rounds more.

An interesting hybrid is the 357 SIG. This round uses the 9mm (.355") bullet in a necked down case that is similar to the .40. (The .357 SIG is NOT a necked .40, the case walls on the .357 SIG are significantly thicker.) This round brings the 9mm projectile into a new world of ballistics with significantly more velocity. The design criteria of the round was to equal the muzzle ballistics of a .357 magnum round in an auto. From all accounts, it is a success. Well, except for the fact that ammo is a bit on the expensive side.

Some people shoot the .357 SIG purely because it has a very unique sound due to the high muzzle velocity.

Most semi-autos can convert from .40 S&W to the .357 SIG with nothing more than a barrel change.

My current carry gun, the SIG 239 comes as either a 9mm, .40, or .357 SIG. I currently use the .40 configuration as I find ammo cheaper and easier to pbtain than the .357 SIG, and I prefer the higher energy of the .40 round over the 9mm.. For me, the grip size of a .40 fits my hand better than a .45 and the reduced size of the gun helps to conceal it better.

Probably a lot more than you wanted to know, but there it is. (^_^)
 
It's the hits that count. [wink] Making yourself good at placing multiple shots centermass will increase your chances of stopping an attacker.

Practice, Practice, Practice....

ETA: Great INFO Chris
 
Adam_MA said:
I trust my life to 40S&W every time I carry. So does the FBI and a good amount (if not all) law enforcement agency's.

I have faith it the round.

Adam
A big +1
 
The 40 S&W is a good round, no doubt about it and Chris's write-up on it was first class. It is interesting to note that Mass State Police went to the .40 S&W back in 1998 and replaced their 9mm Sig P226's with the same gun in the heavier caliber.

I have been told, or have read somewhere, where the Texas Department of Public Safety has gone over to the .357 Sig exclusively. Apparently the officers there had a choice between a Sig in .357 or in .45 ACP, but in terms of "street cred" the .357 Sig outperformed the .45 in both penetration (no surprise there) and in stopping power. The Delaware State Police carry the .357 Sig in the Sig P229 and apparently are very satisfied with it.

Authorities such as Mas Ayoob and Evan Marshall maintained data bases on police shootings in the 1980's and possibly into the 90's. They independently came to the conclusion that the .357 125gr hollow point was the best overall incapacitation round. The .357 Sig equals this performance in a semi-automatic.

The new kid on the block is the .45 GAP (Glock Auto Pistol) which has a shorter case than the .45 ACP but claims to be its ballistic equal. The advantage of this round is that 9mm and 40 S&W sized guns can accomodate it. Only the future will see where this round finally ends up.

But, I think it was Derek who said it best: It's all about shot placement in the end, and two or three solid hits with a .380 ACP mean a helluva lot more than three misses with a .45 ACP.

In the end, gun control means being able to hit your target [wink]

Mark
 
400Corbon.jpg


:D
 
The 40 S&W is a good round, no doubt about it and Chris's write-up on it was first class. It is interesting to note that Mass State Police went to the .40 S&W back in 1998 and replaced their 9mm Sig P226's with the same gun in the heavier caliber.

Mark,

Can you tell us what round (manufacturer, weight, etc.) the MSP are using in their .40's?
 
I was amused to see my most recent edition of Gun Tests included the .400 Cor-Bon in one of its reviews. I got a drop-in barrel back when it first came out years ago. I don't shoot it that much, but it's still fun and definitely packs a punch, too much, it seems, for the Gun Test reviewers.

The answer for the best personal protection round is still the same today as it was when Jeff Cooper first articulated it (and no, he didn't simply grunt "M1911, .45ACP"): Use the biggest, most powerful round that you can hit your target with every single time you pull the trigger. That means that what works for one person, won't necessarily work for the next.

Ken
 
To the best of my knowledge, the MSP is currently carrying a 165 gr jacketed hollowpoint, which ballistically is equivilent of the old Winchester Blak Talon round. I am not sure of the current vendor, but I believe that it is Winchester....I'll double check.

Mark
 
Mark,

Thanks. The reason I ask is some advice from, I believe Mas Ayoob a few years back, to look at what law enforcement (especially local) carries when choosing a SD round. I've never asked what my Town PD carries (they have .40's also) but I will tomorrow.
 
I know all about placement, and I'm a ton better shot at pistol than rifle (instructor blinked when I did 5 shots 1- 9 ring, 4 - 10, 3-X) Also, I shot pistol a ton more than rifle and thus learned the basics early and reinforced (was forbidden to use scopes on 50 ft indoor gallery with 22 LR) so it actualy payed off in the long run.

Thanks for the info, I think I'll broaden my eventual search to either a .40 S&W or .45.


Chris, actually the info you gave me was exactly what I was looking for. I can read all I want about the round but can actually gain more knowledge about it from asking people who shoot it and/or have experience with it.
 
I just checked these out.......

for those .45 caliber believers. Using Federal Hydra-Shok Personal Protection tables and distances of 25 feet, where defensive shooting maxes out, the following came up:


45 ACP- 230 grain JHP
Velocity: 872 ft/sec. Energy: 389 ft. lbs.
165 grain JHP
Velocity: 1014 ft/sec. Energy: 377 ft. lbs.

40 S&W-180 grain JHP
Velocity: 972 ft/sec Energy: 377 ft. lbs.
165 grain JHP
Velocity: 980 ft/sec. Energy: 331 ft. lbs.
155 grain JHP
Velocity: 1079 ft/sec. Energy: 401 ft/lbs
135 grain JHP
Velocity: 1116 ft/sec. Energy: 373 ft. lbs.

Based on the best combination of velocity and energy, I would choose the 165 grain 45 ACP. load or the 155 grain, or 180 grain 40 S&W load. The numbers re-affirm why I have one 45 cal. carry gun and two 40 cal. carry guns. I would trust my life, and the lives of others, to either.


:D
 
Coyote33 said:
Yeah, but compare that to:


165 grain JHP
Velocity: 1300ft/sec. Energy: 619ft. lbs.

But what is that velocity and energy at 25'? That's the distance where Bills tables were rated at.

Adam
 
My mistake

I meant 25 yards. The point being in all the info is ie., a Federal Hydra-Shok 40 S&W 180 grain JHP produces a velocity of 1000 ft/sec at the muzzle and 972 ft/sec at 25 yards. If you have to shoot at between 10 and 25 feet, the only differance all the way out to 25 yards is 28 ft/sec. The energy(whack factor) at the muzzle is 400 ft. lbs. All the the way out to 25 yards it drops to 377 ft. lbs., a differance of only 23 ft. lbs. So, if you have to shoot at say 15 feet, aiming at the chest cavity, this BG is going to a hurtin' puppy with either caliber. A 380, 9MM, or 38 SPL.+P with a good JHP will also get the job done at 7-15 feet. I know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either. Barrel length also plays into the equation ie., 1 3/4 " snubbie or 5" full size pistol, but the average is a barrel of between 3 1/4"-4.1/2". :D
 
Adam_MA said:
Coyote33 said:
Yeah, but compare that to:

165 grain JHP
Velocity: 1300ft/sec. Energy: 619ft. lbs.
But what is that velocity and energy at 25'? That's the distance where Bills tables were rated at.

The drop in both velocity and energy over the first 25 feet of travel is essentially zero for anything beyond your old BB gun.

The only real problems with the .400 Cor-Bon are the limitations on factory ammunition, the relative difficulty in getting quick follow-up hits, and the likelihood of its being portrayed as a "tricked-out, wild-cat killing machine."

Ken
 
Coyote33 said:
KMaurer said:
...the likelihood of its being portrayed as a "tricked-out, wild-cat killing machine."

Ken

As opposed to the .357 Sig?

Yes. With the .357 Sig you've got the fact that a lot of PDs have adopted it working for you; prosecutors don't tend to help their careers by portraying police in general as a bunch of kill-crazed gun-nuts. Also, keep in mind that the .357 Sig really is a pussy cat in comparison to the Cor-Bon.

Ken
 
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