40 cal vs 9mm; why the hostility

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bought two 40's when the cal first came out: an all steel kahr and a glock 23. then it was claimed to have an edge over the 45. since i have heard the new 9mm ammo will perform just as well as 40; what products and configurations justify this info. i have 3 nines; browing hi power, smith 39 and glock 26. what hot new 9 mm ammo will function with out damaging the older guns; browning hi power and smith 39?
 

insomniac

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Hmm, I wouldn't shoot any +P or +P+ through the hi power if it's a true 9mm and not a 40 with a 9mm barrel drop-in.

Edit: well with caveats, found this from the bowels of the Internet:
This discussion comes up frequently in the Forum, and as such makes an appropriate topic here. +P and +P+ ammunition, though not recommended for use in Hi Power by Browning, has been used in small quantities without adverse affect, and in larger quantities to properly prepped guns without issue. The following article comes from the November 1989, issue of the American Rifleman magazine, starting on page 36. The American Rifleman is published monthly by the National Rifle Association of America, 1600 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20036. Telephone: (202) 828-6000. Note that the tests it refers to took place prior to 1989. This should make the post-94 Hi-Powers even more durable. "Browning, on the other hand, forwarded a copy of an internal test report in which it fired 5000 rounds of Remington +P+ 9mm ammunition in a Browning Hi Power pistol. "Inspection of the Hi Power system reveled no unnatural wear to the locking surfaces or any other area. Headspace was checked and found to be acceptable." The conclusion: "...the 9mm Hi Power system appears to be durable enough to withstand long-range [term] shooting of the new ammunition from Remington." Please note that extended or steady use of +P and +P+ ammunition will accelerate wear in modern Hi Powers, as it does in nearly every other handgun. The use of extra power recoil springs (such as a Wolf 18.5lb variant for 9mm) or recoil buffers such as those from Shok-buff can counter this pounding, and add service life to those pistols using the higher pressure ammo. Use of +P and +P+ ammo should be avoided altogether in older Hi Powers however, particularly early WWII specimens. I myself restrict usage of +P ammo to my newer MKIII variants only."
 
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Brewer

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You'd think higher muzzle energy would correlate to higher terminal performance (permanent cavitation), but the ballistic gel tests don't show it. These guys at Federal spend all day thinking about these things. They conclude handgun calibers are largely comparable in performance and speculate that extra muzzle energy is lost in temporary cavitation.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y


I got the G35 (.40) in 2006 and a G41 (.45) later but no longer hold those assumptions about advantage. If I knew then what I knew now I would have bought a G34 (9mm) for the capacity and recoil's sake. My typical carry is now G43.
 

Mountain

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Get ready for the 'not this sh!t again' memes.

Both are effective enough rounds, and what is 'better' depends on the purpose and person shooting. In a like-for-like comparison, 40 is more effective in terms of hitting harder and transferring more energy to the target. I don't get the hostility either, and 9mm fans will cook up all kinds of permutations to prove 9mm is better when in fact if comparing +P to +P loads- 40 will have the edge. John Wick wannabe's will rag on the 40 recoil blah blah blah. I have both and really don't care about all the stupid arguments and hostility.

Ditto regarding not using +P ammo if you want to play it safe in your older firearms. 124 grain or less bullets and under 1,200 fps. Others may want to debate whether or not +P is ok, but easy to answer your question if you stay with standard ammo.

edit- @Brewer , not picking on you regarding the recoil comment. I have a G35 that I converted to 9mm with a Storm Lake barrel. Basically now a bull barrel G34 and a tackdriver- love it. There's lots of arguments regarding what's a better SD round, and ballistic gel tests may be valid but you also have to consider heavy clothing especially in the north during winter. Yours was a good post- I don't care for the guys who get nasty about 40.
 

amm5061

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+P is fine in the 26; it will take it. Little snappy in that, but I have no trouble with it in mine. I would shoot standard pressure (not +P or +P+) in the others.

Nobody should ever shoot +P+ because no one knows what the f*** that actually is or if your barrel can handle it.
 

M60

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+P is fine in the 26; it will take it. Little snappy in that, but I have no trouble with it in mine. I would shoot standard pressure (not +P or +P+) in the others.

Nobody should ever shoot +P+ because no one knows what the f*** that actually is or if your barrel can handle it.
Winchester has been making the Ranger T series for quite a while now. Within the Ranger T series there is the Ranger T, 127 gr., 9mm, +P+ round. The stated velocity is 1275 fps. They seem to know exactly what it is and if a 9mm barrel can handle it. I will say that they no longer sell this line of ammunition to distribution, without the clear understanding that it is no longer to be sold to the civilian market. Perhaps they had issues with civilians using their +p+ ammo in older guns. They seem to have no issues, with law enforcement using it.
 

M60

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Food for thought. If a bad guy is shot with a 115 gr., 9mm projectile, is a 230 gr. .45acp, equal to being hit with two 115 gr., 9mm rounds at the same time?
 

Wickedcoolname

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Caliber doesn't matter nor does the velocity of a particular caliber, i.e., plus-P or magnum vs standard velocity. It just doesn't matter.
The only thing that matters is shot placement. .22 short or .500 magnum...put the bullet in the right spot and the bad guy stops.
Just carry what you hit best with and don't worry about the caliber.
 

Dennis in MA

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Have you considered .41mag and/or .38 Super??? I mean, both are superior calibers and can kick serious ass. Anyone who says different is a poopy-head. Some great inexpensive loads are produced by Winch. . . .uh, Feder. . . . uh, my cousin Bob. ;)
 

Dennis in MA

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Food for thought. If a bad guy is shot with a 115 gr., 9mm projectile, is a 230 gr. .45acp, equal to being hit with two 115 gr., 9mm rounds at the same time?

If that were completely true, the recoil energy of a 45 would be double what a 9 is. Sure you get a bigger hole. But it may or may not spell significantly more damage. All things being equal, I'd rather take 2 shots with the 9mm. BUT. . . . I'd take 2 shots with the 9mm over 6 with a .22. (Which is also about 230grains, give or take.)
 

looser38

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Shot placement is of utmost importance, period.
There are many factors that are secondary to this that will or can determine the end results, period.
 
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Keep in mind though, that especially in a stressful life and death situation. You may have every intention of hitting the T box and putting someone's lights out, and maybe you can make that shot 99/100 times on a paper Target at the range. Things change when you are faced with a real life moving threat. The fact is you are most likely not going to hit exactly where you want. So having a more powerful round can be an advantage. A higher energy round is more likely to break bones, put your target into shock, cause more area damage due to energy transfer.... Basically, stopping power is a real thing.

Arguments can me made for why this caliber is better or that caliber is better.... Ultimately, figure out the most likely self defense situation you might face based on your life and activities, find a gun/caliber combo you shoot well with, train a whole bunch and carry that.

Situational awareness is more important than any of the other factors. You are much better off avoiding a lethal situation than finding out if your caliber choice/training/skill/reaction were enough to keep you alive.

.02
 

new guy

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Anyone who shoots 40 is a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?
 

mav

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There was an article recently about why the FBI has gone back to 9mm for it's service pistols. I think the generaly gist is (and many have already stated this above)
1. Advances in today's ammo have put many 9mm rounds on par with the prior performance of .40cal
2. 9mm is easier to shoot regarding recoil and follow-up shot accuracy, especially for women or smaller-framed/weaker individuals
3. 9mm provides for higher capacity which is important for the next two items
4. Shot placement and follow-up shot accuracy is of higher concern than terminal ballistics of handgun ammunition.
5. 1-shot stopping power is a myth in handgun calibers and the FBI's studies have shown that regardless of caliber, multiple hits is what stops bad guys.

Anyway, I had a .40, shot it like crap compared to my 9mm so I sold it. Now I have 9mm and .45 because in MA, civilians are only allowed to have 10 rounds mags anyway, so might as well shoot as big a bullet as I can comfortably and accurately shoot within that 10 round capacity limit. Thanks MA for completely ignoring common sense and studies of actual shootings by the FBI where mag capacity seems to be an important decider in a firefight...

Instead of posting the link to the article which I can't find, just google fu for "Why FBI went back to 9mm". Ton of stuff comes up.
 

hminsky

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I believe that there is a non-negligible chance of mixing up 9mm and .40, and since everyone has a 9mm, .40 gets voted off the island.
 

Dennis in MA

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I still stuck on the meatball gun thing. So many questions. Cooked or raw meatball? Who made it? What's in it? What season is it? Whose house are we in? (Because it could be January and I've have extra layers of clothing on. . . unless we were at my Mimi's and she's got the heat to 84.)

I'm thinking January at my house with an uncooked meatball - I could take that. Maybe.
 

Mountain

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Anyone who shoots 40 is a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?
Any of those would be better than being a 9mm soyboy. Even my wife thinks shooting 9mm is 'meh'. I guess we should be accepting of all types, including the soft hands, limp wrist crowd; and should be happy that there's a caliber for them.
[devil2]
 

new guy

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Any of those would be better than being a 9mm soyboy. Even my wife thinks shooting 9mm is 'meh'. I guess we should be accepting of all types, including the soft hands, limp wrist crowd; and should be happy that there's a caliber for them.
[devil2]
Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?
 
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