.308 battle rifles

4.) CETME platform - Good, not great. Stamped receiver and massive bolt. Crappy sights but coolest charging handle ever. Price is on its side.
3.) AR10 - Awesome, but it's just an AR15 in 308.
2.) M1A - Classic feel. Amazing trigger. Eats everything. Lots of aftermarket. Best iron sights in the business. With wood stock it looks like sex.
1.) FAL - 90+ countries chose this platform. Easy field strip, ergonomic controls, very unique experience. Crazy expensive and very few aftermarket options.
 
C. Stockwell said:
FAL bros: @Picton @daekken @SKumar @Greg @nordic alien - we gotta get this guy some trigger time with multiple FALs and win him over once the 'rona ends.
Click to expand...

@daekken can possibly give you some honest feedback for the accuracy of the FAL vs. a M1A. FAL is 3 MOA on a good day. Also check some of the discussions on Snipers' Hide.

Classic battle rifle + fairly accurate = M1A

The most accurate battle rifle? AR-10 or DPMS pattern AR-308 types. You'll be free-floating the barrel, and you can get match quality in a GI profile or heavier barrel. But that's not a classic...
 
Mountain said:
@daekken can possibly give you some honest feedback for the accuracy of the FAL vs. a M1A. FAL is 3 MOA on a good day. Also check some of the discussions on Snipers' Hide.

Classic battle rifle + fairly accurate = M1A

The most accurate battle rifle? AR-10 or DPMS pattern AR-308 types. You'll be free-floating the barrel, and you can get match quality in a GI profile or heavier barrel. But that's not a classic...
Click to expand...

Negative. Well. It depends. Again, I've owned two completed FALs and a Springfield M1A. The FALs and my Vepr were more accurate than the M1A. Less recoil, too.

The contributing factors to gun accuracy are the barrel quality and twist rate, the ammo, the trigger, the lockup, and most importantly, the squishy being behind the gun. DSA's new barrels are pretty accurate. If we're talking about a sewer-barrel FAL and a National Match M1A, then that's a different story.

Like I said on the previous page, the M1A is the CMP rifle because that's what the gun was designed for. The M14 is a product of the original Springfield Armory and Camp Perry shooters. The FAL, at least the DSAs I've owned, have been accurate enough to do anything I want. I shoot 3-gun and for my own amusement.
 
To add, if OP was interested in measuring group sizes, he likely wouldn't be posting this thread and would instead be looking at a hyper-acccurized AR or Remington 700. I'm willing to bet that if you compared the average American conscript GI with a M14 to an Aussie or Kiwi with a L1A1 in Vietnam, the guns wouldn't be that much different in accuracy. To get the M14 platform into its current state took decades of development by CMP shooters - the guns weren't shooting 1MOA in 1963 except for the match guns.

To give any meaningful statement about which gun is more accurate, we should be comparing specific examples, not making vague generalities. Because none of us are comparing an actual FN FAL to an actual mil-spec, select-fire M14.
 
C. Stockwell said:
Negative. Well. It depends. Again, I've owned two completed FALs and a Springfield M1A. The FALs and my Vepr were more accurate than the M1A. Less recoil, too.

The contributing factors to gun accuracy are the barrel quality and twist rate, the ammo, the trigger, the lockup, and most importantly, the squishy being behind the gun. DSA's new barrels are pretty accurate. If we're talking about a sewer-barrel FAL and a National Match M1A, then that's a different story.

Like I said on the previous page, the M1A is the CMP rifle because that's what the gun was designed for. The M14 is a product of the original Springfield Armory and Camp Perry shooters. The FAL, at least the DSAs I've owned, have been accurate enough to do anything I want. I shoot 3-gun and for my own amusement.
Click to expand...

OK, how 'bout a postal grudge match? [smile] Or maybe come on down to an Old Colony Modern Military match once those resume. @mac1911 can be the referee.

I have a VEPR. While it has good DMR accuracy which comes from its heritage, it's not up to par with the M1A and there's little you can do to accurize it. I think the fun factor is a little higher with the VEPR, however. I'm seriously thinking about one of these stocks for the VEPR:

vepr-red-wood-svd-style-stock-set-product-7.jpg
 
Mountain said:
OK, how 'bout a postal grudge match? [smile] Or maybe come on down to an Old Colony Modern Military match once those resume. @mac1911 can be the referee.

I have a VEPR. While it has good DMR accuracy which comes from its heritage, it's not up to par with the M1A and there's little you can do to accurize it. I think the fun factor is a little higher with the VEPR, however. I'm seriously thinking about one of these stocks for the VEPR:
Click to expand...

If you're serious about this, PM me. I've been itching to put together a retro match.
 
Christian said:
Why is it everyone says it's soooooo difficult to scope an M1A?

I slapped an A.R.M.S. #18 on mine and if I can do it anyone can. Aside from knocking out the roll pin on the guide the "toughest" part was taking a Dremel to cut out a relief for the set screw.
Click to expand...

Nothing difficult about scoping a M14. Just an expensive process with both the mount and the cheek riser or stock with adjustable comb. That mount you mentioned is $200. For FALs, DSA makes an awesome pic-rail mount for $90, less than half that.
 
Greg said:
Hey, he supplies the ammo sure.

I only have 12k rounds of surplus 308 left and I can't replace it for what I got it for, so therefore I don't shoot it lol

Greg logic !

I have these 150 grain soft points I bought at WalMart a while ago..A milkjug with frozen water literally explodes...Cool as hell.
Click to expand...
I do have a small stockpile of M80 ball ammo..
 
Rocco Mozz said:
There’s a smoking hot FAL on the forums right now!
Click to expand...

Not a fan of the 21" 50.64 para..the 50.63 with 18" is better IMO.

It is a nice rifle he has though..I was actually thinking of converting mine to a 50.63 clone. Cost about $1k if I remember corectly, and that's without Robar treating the internals, it's not even offered anymore, at least through DSA.
 
Greg said:
Not a fan of the 21" 50.64 para..the 50.63 with 18" is better IMO.

It is a nice rifle he has though..I was actually thinking of converting mine to a 50.63 clone. Cost about $1k if I remember corectly, and that's without Robar treating the internals, it's not even offered anymore, at least through DSA.
Click to expand...
I must admit I do not know much about the subject. But a FAL is a FAL if you don’t own one let alone any BR for that matter! I’m in that camp and feel like a peasant but I can offer this advice: C308s are available in MASS you don’t need to break the bank and there are optics available and they are reliable, so I’ve heard. Drawbacks: The charging handle is far on the upper receiver and the trigger pull is longer and creepier than Joe Biden, so I’ve heard. But it is a solid rifle all things considered.
 
Rocco Mozz said:
I must admit I do not know much about the subject. But a FAL is a FAL if you don’t own one let alone any BR for that matter! I’m in that camp and feel like a peasant but I can offer this advice: C308s are available in MASS you don’t need to break the bank and there are optics available and they are reliable, so I’ve heard. Drawbacks: The charging handle is far on the upper receiver and the trigger pull is longer and creepier than Joe Biden, so I’ve heard. But it is a solid rifle all things considered.
Click to expand...
You can swap the lower or trigger pack with a G3 version which is much better.
 
For any purpose except bench shooting, I would choose the FAL when comparing it vis-a-vis the M1A. The M1A can be quite accurate, but the FAL isn't poor. There's a reason why countries, including Ireland, use it as a DMR rifle today in an accurized configuration. Mechanically the M1A is likely more accurate.

The M1A is a fine rifle, but in terms of useability, handling, coolness, and "battle" use, I think the FAL runs rings around it.

Both are iconic rifles, but if I am picking one or the other, I am selecting the FAL, personally.
 
84ta406 said:
6-8" AR500 plates at 100-200 yards is what I'd like for accuracy, I honestly don't expect much more and have bolt actions that can stack on top of it ach other for that. No tacticool here, old school battle rifle. I have a CETME kit awaiting a barrel and such but was obviously looking at other things. I realize a FAL isn't the best choice due to receiver options and lack of 80% stuff out there. I love shooting my SKS but I don't reload for it and have no interest which is another reason I want a .308 rifle.
Click to expand...
If your looking for -6 moa with iron sights M1a loaded will deliver that even with M80/7.62NATO ammo. With better ammo -3moa is pretty common.
you can consider a 308 garand from the cmp also.
i would say forget the scope set up on the M1a. It can be done and its not terrible and $200+ for a good scope mount is really not that expensive.
Plus scoping a M1a requires a pretty tall comb riser which really starts to destroy the classic look.

Classic battle rifle , soft shooting ect ect.
Plus you could shoot cmp games at 200 yards or even NRA service rifle XTC.
As mentioned NRA high power/cmp targets are based off military accuracy. Most decent "battle" rifles with ok ammo "should" hold 6moa or better- that happens to be the size of the black bulls eye on highpower targets.

for me the HKs and FALs loose some of thier appeal to me in the "rifle" length configuration.


OP if interested Im planning on selling my SAI loaded with Archangle Stock and Smith Enterprises scope mount. Just add scope.
Only thing keeping me from MOA is me.
I can get to 6 out of 10 on a 10 dot challenge until my eyes lie to my booger hook! Currently in stuck at 6 consecutive shots and 9/10 total. Usually im just out side the 1" dot at shot 3 -4. Fun game
 
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BTSDOG said:
Ive got an older M1a, 70's version Supermatch. Reciever has no rear lug like the new ones do . Heavy walnut stock, and Heavy Krieger Match Barrel. With tweaked handloads, it would hold 1 min. Of angle at 600 yds. (thats off benchrest, im not that good). Now the recievers are rear lugged for accuracy. I got out of the National Match game and just like shooting at my own speed (slow). So i took it and put it into an Archangel Tactical Stock, with a Millett 35mm tube, LRS1 long range scope. Its an accurate rifle. Mine liked 41.5 grn. of H4895 under a Sierra 168g. HPBT seated at 2.800 For slowfire at 600yd. I seated it out longer to get closer to lands, hence less bullet jump. I cant remamber the OAL, but i did have to feed single shot as they were too long for magazine function........Enough said. Well maybe, Im working on a M1a Socom II that I plan on putting into a Sage Int. Ebr chassis. That'll be my battle rifle.....
Click to expand...
I put my socom in a sage ebr stock and it’s great, that’s my battle rifle
 
So much of this comes down to personal preference mainly due to ergonomics.

I have a handfull of M14s (one is an actual M1A) each set up a bit differently with a couple of them scoped. Yes, the scope mounts are expensive but there's nothing difficult about mounting them. I prefer the Brookfield type mounts and have an original. I can shoot them without a cheek riser but it's better with one. With these mounts the irons are still usable if you don't have a huge scope.
I also have an FAL (DSA Stg58) in full Austrian dress with the bollard sized muzzle anchor. It's a great gun.
A stable mate is an HK91...another great rifle though the stock trigger pull is akin to dragging an anvil across a parking lot.

I prefer any of my M14s over the FAL and third is the HK91. In fact, I would put my 7.62 M1 before the FAL but it is somewhat 'hot rodded'.

The M14s just fit me better and, therefore, handle better...for me. They have great triggers and iron sights and I tend to like shooting irons over optics.
 
Just to add on in comparison to the CMP guys, a .308 rifle like a FAL or G3 or M14 is perfectly serviceable in multigun. You'll be at a speed disadvantage with rock-and-lock mags and more recoil, but most newbs to multigun aren't sweeping the floor anyways. Shooting and moving with a .308 is extremely fun - making hits on steel with a .308 is very satisfying before you run to the next part of the stage. You also realize that the battle rifle as a class of gun was born obsolete when they came out in the 1950s, but that's ok, we still love them.

Really, the battle rifle as we in the west understand it only exists because of the then-stubbornness of US Ordnance to stick with .30-caliber for having an interchangeable rifle and machine gun round. Ballistics research and field reports from WW2 told everyone that a smaller-caliber service rifle, like the .280 British, 7.92x33, or 7.62x39, would be much more effective on modern battlefields and is cheaper to make. What killed .308 as NATO's main caliber was the marked decrease in cost and recoil that .223 offers.

What kept the M14 platform popular here in the US was CMP shooting. Most of the development of that gun comes from after the M14 left frontline service. Look at the mil-spec match-grade US 7.62 NATO - M118 came out in 1965, right around the time of the adoption of the M16, and M852 came out in the 1980s. The US developed M14 DMRs during the 1990s and early 2000s simply because we had tons of the guns in storage and no other acceptable platform. Yeah, there were M14 sniper rifles in Vietnam, but those were individuals. Vietnam also saw things like Winchester Model 70 and Browning M2 sniper rifles.

If I wanted to get back into the M14 platform, I'd build one from a raw receiver and keep the gun as plain as possible with the exception of adding a side mount and a 1-6 or a 1-8 LPVO. Another option is an 18" barrel with a RDS.
 
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As a lefty, does one platform’s manual of arms lend itself to being ambidextrous more than another? I’m more than accustomed to using righty everything (try engaging the slide-lock with your non-dominant pinky or ring finger over the top) but just wanted some opinions of those who own these rifles. Charging, mag changes, safeties, etc.
Thanks.

I will say just at first glance,(and in my very limited experience) pistol grips give a much better platform to hold a rifle single handedly for odd manipulation.

Edit- Just to clarify, I wouldn’t want to make one ambi, just curious if one is already more ambi than others. I got rid of my VP9 not because I didn’t like fully ambi controls, but because 9 out of 10 guns I pick up aren’t ambidextrous and I’d prefer to feel comfortable with what otherwise might be considered odd manipulation, like revolvers for instance. It takes some practice to be able to do things backwards and some platforms lend themselves to this better than others, that’s all.
 
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Tinkermatic said:
As a lefty, does one platform’s manual of arms lend itself to being ambidextrous more than another? I’m more than accustomed to using righty everything (try engaging the slide-lock with your non-dominant pinky or ring finger over the top) but just wanted some opinions of those who own these rifles. Charging, mag changes, safeties, etc.
Thanks.

I will say just at first glance,(and in my very limited experience) pistol grips give a much better platform to hold a rifle single handedly for odd manipulation.
Click to expand...

@daekken would be the guy to speak to.

Each platform has pros and cons when it comes to the left-handed. For example, the M14 has a relatively ambidextrous safety, with it being in the trigger guard, and the op-rod is on the "correct" side for you guys, your weak hand. The FAL is very right-handed friendly with the mag release being on the right side and the charging handle and safety being on the left side, the "correct" side for a right-handed shooter. I haven't shot a G3 so I can't comment except to point out that Ian of Forgotten Weapons and InRange, who is left-handed, loathed the G3 until he substantially modded his gun with a Spuhr stock and other farkles.
 
C. Stockwell said:
@daekken would be the guy to speak to.

Each platform has pros and cons when it comes to the left-handed. For example, the M14 has a relatively ambidextrous safety, with it being in the trigger guard, and the op-rod is on the "correct" side for you guys, your weak hand. The FAL is very right-handed friendly with the mag release being on the right side and the charging handle and safety being on the left side, the "correct" side for a right-handed shooter. I haven't shot a G3 so I can't comment except to point out that Ian of Forgotten Weapons and InRange loathed the G3 until he substantially modded his gun with a Spuhr stock and other farkles.
Click to expand...

I have taken to watching more of his videos simply because he’s a lefty and I can watch his movements. Sig put out a great video for lefty AR manipulation but don’t think many exist for these rifles. One thing I have heard is that the M14 with its moving and exposed action up the right side, can be impeded or slowed enough, even by a glove, to cause malfunctions.
 
Tinkermatic said:
I have taken to watching more of his videos simply because he’s a lefty and I can watch his movements. Sig put out a great video for lefty AR manipulation but don’t think many exist for these rifles. One thing I have heard is that the M14 with its moving and exposed action up the right side, can be impeded or slowed enough, even by a glove, to cause malfunctions.
Click to expand...

I know Ian loves the FAL (he's done videos wearing a "Be a man among men" t-shirt), had to make the G3 work for him, and is not a fan of the M14. You'll want to comb through the older InRange 2GACM match footage back when Ian and Karl first started shooting together because that's when Ian did a lot of footage with a FAL.

I never really noticed the op-rod in motion when I shot the M1A I owned but I'm right-handed. You would likely want to shoot a M14-pattern gun or a Garand to make sure your left-handed grip works with the gun. With the FAL, nothing moves on the outside besides the bolt inside the ejection port.
 
C. Stockwell said:
If you're serious about this, PM me. I've been itching to put together a retro match.
Click to expand...

The easiest way to do this would be for all of us to attend an already organized CMP Modern Military match. @daekken knows the Old Colony ones very well- if you guys are in the same area you could carpool down.

Alternately I could arrange something at my club in Princeton, MA; but we only have 100 yards. Easy enough to use SR-1 targets, however.

daekken said:
For any purpose except bench shooting, I would choose the FAL when comparing it vis-a-vis the M1A. The M1A can be quite accurate, but the FAL isn't poor. There's a reason why countries, including Ireland, use it as a DMR rifle today in an accurized configuration. Mechanically the M1A is likely more accurate.

The M1A is a fine rifle, but in terms of useability, handling, coolness, and "battle" use, I think the FAL runs rings around it.

Both are iconic rifles, but if I am picking one or the other, I am selecting the FAL, personally.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you have a thing for cool factor over accuracy. [devil]

Kidding aside, you make a good point. Actually, after just completing the FEG AK build, I was wanting to try something different. I'm pretty happy with my one M14 build- looks traditional and meets CMP rules yet shoots like a National Match. I have another M14 parts kit that I could sell to fund a FAL build.
 
Tinkermatic said:
I have taken to watching more of his videos simply because he’s a lefty and I can watch his movements. Sig put out a great video for lefty AR manipulation but don’t think many exist for these rifles. One thing I have heard is that the M14 with its moving and exposed action up the right side, can be impeded or slowed enough, even by a glove, to cause malfunctions.
Click to expand...

@mac1911 is a lefty and regularly shoots M1's and M1a's in matches. Often kicks my butt, too.
 
C. Stockwell said:
@daekken would be the guy to speak to.

Each platform has pros and cons when it comes to the left-handed. For example, the M14 has a relatively ambidextrous safety, with it being in the trigger guard, and the op-rod is on the "correct" side for you guys, your weak hand. The FAL is very right-handed friendly with the mag release being on the right side and the charging handle and safety being on the left side, the "correct" side for a right-handed shooter. I haven't shot a G3 so I can't comment except to point out that Ian of Forgotten Weapons and InRange, who is left-handed, loathed the G3 until he substantially modded his gun with a Spuhr stock and other farkles.
Click to expand...
The M1A is a little more left-friendly.
As mentioned, the M1A safety is easily actuated by either hand. The stock FAL safety is similar to an AR safety. Ambi ones do exist, but I don't run one.

As for charging handles, it's a matter of preference in my opinion. My favorite method is that which I use on AKs - leave trigger hand on pistol grip, charge it with the right hand. However, there's a couple of factors - weight of the gun, and strength of the springs. My FAL has pretty stiff springs, so it does take a good amount of effort to charge it. No sure if that will change as it breaks in a bit more. The FAL's bolt release is also easily used with either hand.

I've never impeded the oprod or functioning of an M1 or M1A with my hand, although I see how it could happen. Out of all rifles I shoot, the only ones I've actually had an issue with is an AK - I need to be very cognizant of keeping my thumb forward when doing a magwell hold and I've busted my thumb open a few times with the charging handle slamming into it if I let it creep up into the path of the bolt carrier.
 

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