21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

Mesatchornug said:
www.northeastshooters.com

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Wow.. not sure how I missed that thread but I just went through the whole thing.

Yikes.
 
paul73 said:
so, dunno if it worth a vote or not.
what are the real chances that situation was indeed f#cked up so bad so that jerk indeed did not even know that he was _the_ one in charge?
way too ridiculous to be true, but, from the other perspective - dunno. but if indeed no one was really in charge of that whole chaos, it would be something.

it is just an every time i ask myself a question like - can anyone be _that_ stupid, more often than not the answer is a definitive 'yes'.

www.cbsnews.com

Uvalde schools police chief: I didn't know I was in charge at the shooting scene

Pete Arredondo defended himself in his first extensive remarks since the massacre. The police response to the shooting has been heavily criticized.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
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Maybe he just assumed the Border Patrol was in charge, since they took action. Seems logical.
 
G Port said:
Maybe he just assumed the Border Patrol was in charge, since they took action. Seems logical.
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Remember the timeline.

It was over an hour after Arredondo got there before BP finally did take action. They were never even close to being IC. He was the second officer on the scene, and wearing stars; it's ludicrous to suggest he didn't know he was in charge.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get. At the police inaction, at the shifting timeline, and now at the outright lies from this POS.
 
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Picton said:
Remember the timeline.

It was over an hour after Arredondo got there before BP finally did take action. They were never even close to being IC. He was the second officer on the scene, and wearing stars; it's ludicrous to suggest he didn't know he was in charge.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get. At the police inaction, at the shifting timeline, and now at the outright lies from this POS.
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I was just being a smarta$$.
 
safetyfirst2125 said:

View: https://twitter.com/jason_koebler/status/1537836363780829184?s=21&t=5lH8NzEdzGSRN79AicHeog


View: https://twitter.com/jason_koebler/status/1537883055976697862?s=21&t=5lH8NzEdzGSRN79AicHeog
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Police and law enforcement are a racket. They don't prevent crime, they're best suited for two things: Murder investigations, arrests after assaults, and SWAT raids for active shooters, hostages, and barricaded suspects. That's it. What we have instead is largely incompetent forces that make up a department who can't be an effective response to most crimes, are hesitant to engage active shooters without dozens of backup, hand out tickets for traffic violations, and when they fukk up don't believe there is any accountability or responsibility on their part.

It's a waste of tax money.
 
T-Unit said:
Police and law enforcement are a racket. They don't prevent crime, they're best suited for two things: Murder investigations, arrests after assaults, and SWAT raids for active shooters, hostages, and barricaded suspects. That's it. What we have instead is largely incompetent forces that make up a department who can't be an effective response to most crimes, are hesitant to engage active shooters without dozens of backup, hand out tickets for traffic violations, and when they fukk up don't believe there is any accountability or responsibility on their part.

It's a waste of tax money.
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Jesus Christ. I know it’s easy to be a keyboard commando. I just can’t believe they couldn’t run up there and f***ing shoot somebody.

If I run up somewhere and shoot somebody I got a pay for my own f***ing lawyer
 
I can’t believe this happened in Texas. I’m gonna look at map… I lived around the San Antonio area.

I have plenty of respect for the interactions I’ve had with the Texas Rangers..

I mean the cops shoot people in my own hometown when push comes to shove I don’t doubt for a second they wouldrun up in that building and put that guy out. Even the young guys I think would do it. If anything they are eager.

They seal team six me pretty good I never saw it coming. It did take 20 minutes.

That kind of thing happens when you’re working on bad information but I’m pretty sure they know where the school is.

My guess is they have a 10 minute response and they have 3 to 5 officers in there within 15 minutes.

I don’t care if it’s one on one or not but 3 to 5 people versus one active shooter. Sounds like an advantage to me
 
MagGus1820 said:
I hate to see what comes out next to prove me wrong, but this almost can't get any worse.
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Every time a new detail comes out it gets worse. Like at this point I'm just waiting to hear that during the Bortac breach one of them shot a kid by accident and the kid died or during the exchange of gunfire thru the door the cops pumped a ton of rounds into the classroom and hit several kids, then decided that it would be best to just let Ramos waste everyone in the room to blame him for killing the kids to cover up any blame on the police themselves.

Not that it matters, police never get in trouble if they accidentally kill or injure any children, see the flashbang in the baby crib from years ago.

What we do know is they stood in the hallway for over an hour, there's a lengthy amount of time of radio communications that is blacked out or was removed from the live feed on the internet, they don't want to release the body cam footage, they said that the outside door was open, but it was really closed and unlocked, said the classroom doors were locked and they couldn't open them because they were constantly taking fire (this appears to be a lie, the shooter was rarely shooting after the initial massacre), were waiting to get keys to open doors (this is a lie as now we're learning they never even attempted to open the doors), were getting 911 calls from children inside the rooms after the IC Arredondo said everyone was dead and the shooter is barricaded, knowing that there were children inside calling 911 yelled thru the doors or windows to tell those hiding to yell if they needed help, which one did and the shooter immediately went to kill her, after that point they then breeched the door and Bortac moved in, so apparently sacrificed a kid for a distraction and a safer entry into the room.

It feels like the police came up with every excuse to make it sound like waiting for an hour before going in was the right decision and either everything they have said is a lie or misinformation. Originally the story was Ramos had body armor on and it turned out to be a tactical vest, like whether the guy was armed or not is irrelevant, the protocol doesn't change with active shooters whether they've got body armor, bombs, machine guns, ballistic shields, night vision goggles, are in locked classrooms, in locked vaults, etc. If you can get in, you go in and you engage, even if it means you die.

The police were clearly not interested in putting their life on the line to save children, that is the simple and obvious answer.

This is beyond bad and I expect when the bodycam footage is released (unless they destroy the footage) it's going to make the police look even worse, like after they entered the room and saw the piles of dead kids, some with half their heads blown apart that they talked about going to the Spurs game later that night or they were like picking up chunks of brain and skulls and playing catch with it.
 
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What a complete debacle and to make the most horrific disgusting thing to happen even worse, the anti-gun scumbags are using this horrible situation to push through their jackassery in many states. When if most people had any common sense this total failure of an inept police department should make most people want less gun control for the masses.
 
It sounds pretty pathetic.. with all that equipment. Can’t open a door?

I would have taken one of the department motorcycles.. crashed it through the door like terminator..

All I know is it took them an hour to f*** up. I make a bad decision in about two minutes.

Just get the f***ing job Done
 
safetyfirst2125 said:
They didn’t even try the door.
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There are lots of tv "consumer reporters" undercover youtube videos of scam locksmiths who drill pickable locks and hammer customers with ridiculous fees.

In one, the "locksmith" drills a simple household grade key in knob lock, then the deadbolt ---- without checking to see if the deadbolt was locked (it wasn't)

Of course, vendors in MA are protected from such media stings because surreptitious audio is wiretapping.
 
Some additional info regarding classroom locks above and beyond my own personal experience...

It’s funny how some things stick in your mind, and even funnier that I have “hardware memories” from way back. I remember a rumor going around my 7th grade Home Ec class that another class had locked our teacher, Mrs. Cross, out of the classroom, and that she had cried. So sad!I’m sure that’s why classroom function locks were invented…to protect all of the Mrs. Crosses of the world.

I’ve recently been asked how classroom function locks and deadlocks work, so here goes…A classroom function lockset is controlled by using a key in the outside cylinder. The inside lever always provides free egress. The outside lever can be locked or unlocked only by someone with the key. There is no pushbutton or thumbturn on the inside that could be used by a rowdy band of 7th grade seamstresses. This function is not just for classrooms…it can be used in any location where control over the locking/unlocking is more important than the convenience offered by a pushbutton or thumbturn (office function).

Several years ago a new type of classroom function lock was introduced, called the “classroom security function” or “security classroom function,” depending on who you’re talking to. This function has two cylinders, which can cause a case of mistaken identity when it’s assumed to be an institutional function (locked on both sides, preventing access AND egress). The inside cylinder on a classroom security lock actually controls the outside lever – the inside lever always allows free egress. The ability to lock the outside lever without opening the door or stepping out into the corridor protects teachers from exposure during a lock-down emergency.A classroom function deadlock is often used with push/pull hardware on entrance doors to multi-stall bathrooms, and I’ve had several code officials question their use over the years. In all cases, once I explained how the lock worked, the code official allowed the application.

To lock a classroom function deadlock, you need to use the key to project the bolt. The key can also be used to retract the bolt. There is a thumbturn on the inside, but it will not project the deadbolt; it will only retract it. Similar to a classroom function lockset, only the person with the key has control over locking the door. If someone is accidentally “locked in,” they can use the thumbturn to retract the bolt for egress.

​

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MGnoob said:
It sounds pretty pathetic.. with all that equipment. Can’t open a door?

I would have taken one of the department motorcycles.. crashed it through the door like terminator..

All I know is it took them an hour to f*** up. I make a bad decision in about two minutes.

Just get the f***ing job Done
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It perplexes me that people are surprised of these “officers” having the ability to respond to anything successfully. I was walking my dog near a local trail and tucked between trees was my local cruiser with the what seemed to be a teenager blonde straight out of the academy doing makeup and putting her lipstick on. I looked at her, rolled my eyes, she smiled and waved and I moved on.
 

Source: Police never tried to open door to classrooms where Uvalde gunman had kids trapped​

Brian Chasnoff , Staff writer Updated: June 18, 2022 4:37 p.m.​


Law enforcement, and other first responders, gather outside Robb Elementary School following a shooting, Tuesday, May 24, 2022, in Uvalde, Texas. (AP Photo/Dario Lopez-Mills)


Surveillance footage shows that police never tried to open a door to two classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde in the 77 minutes between the time a gunman entered the rooms and massacred 21 people and officers finally breached the door and killed him, according to a law enforcement source close to the investigation.

Investigators believe the 18-year-old gunman who killed 19 children and two teachers at the school on May 24 could not have locked the door to the connected classrooms from the inside, according to the source.

All classroom doors at Robb Elementary are designed to lock automatically when they close and can only be locked or unlocked from the outside with a key, the source said. Police might have assumed the door was locked. Yet the surveillance footage suggests gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was able to open the door to classroom 111 and enter with assault-style rifle — perhaps because the door malfunctioned, the source said.

Another door led to classroom 112.

Ramos entered Robb Elementary at 11:33 a.m. that day through an exterior door that a teacher had pulled shut but that didn’t lock automatically as it was supposed to, indicating another malfunction in door locks at the school.

Police finally breached the door to classroom 111 and killed Ramos at 12:50 p.m. Whether the door was unlocked the entire time remains under investigation.

Regardless, officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said.

Two minutes after Ramos entered the building, three Uvalde police officers chased him inside. Footage shows that Ramos fired rounds inside classrooms 111 and 112, briefly exited into the hallway and then re-entered through the door, the source said.

Ramos then shot at the officers through the closed door, grazing two of them with shrapnel. The officers retreated to wait for backup and heavy tactical equipment rather than force their way into the classrooms.

Pedro “Pete” Arredondo, the Uvalde school district police chief and the on-scene incident commander, has said he spent more than an hour in the hallway of the school. He told the Texas Tribune that he called for tactical gear, a sniper and keys to get inside. He said he held officers back from the door to the classrooms for 40 minutes to avoid gunfire.

When a custodian brought a large key ring, Arredondo said he tried dozens of the keys but none worked.

But Arredondo was not trying those keys in the door to classrooms 111 and 112, where Ramos was holed up, according to the law enforcement source. Rather, he was trying to locate a master key by using the various keys on doors to other classrooms nearby, the source said.

While Arredondo waited for a tactical team to arrive, children and teachers inside the classrooms called 911 at least seven times with desperate pleas for help. One of the two teachers who died, Eva Mireles, called her husband by cellphone after she was wounded and lay dying.

Days after the massacre, Col. Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, said at a news conference that “each door can lock from the inside” and that when Ramos went in, “he locked the door.” That information was preliminary, the source said, and further investigation has yielded new revelations about the door.

Police never tried to open door to Uvalde classroom

web.archive.org

Source: Police never tried to open door to classrooms where Uvalde gunman had kids trapped

Surveillance footage shows police never tried to open the door to the classrooms at Robb...
web.archive.org web.archive.org
 
Picton said:
The kids in Uvalde who evacuated mostly did so through the windows, and seemed to have no problem doing so.

One of the issues the CoP is talking about was the robustness of the door. Though why they didn’t breach through the window is beyond me.
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Those doors would be simple to break through for a person with training and tools.

Very few doors are actually hard to break through. And the ones that are just need different tools. I've never found a door so strong that we couldnt figure out how to get through it, and these are just random doors we found. In cases like this, the doors would be a known quality and the local authorities if they actually trained would know what they need and how to get through them.

It's simple business for people who train. But.... you know. people arent doing that. Uvalde is to busy posting cool photos of facebook to do any actual training. As are most departments it seems.
 
safetyfirst2125 said:
All classroom doors at Robb Elementary are designed to lock automatically when they close and can only be locked or unlocked from the outside with a key, the source said.
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This isnt how classroom locks function. This is a storeroom lock, similar to the entrance to an apartment building. I cant see how this would work in a school, but Im not a teacher and havent been in school in years. Every time the door closed, the next person would need to be let in by someone inside which would inevitably lead to doors being propped open. (picture 20 students filing in in dribs and drabs, each one knocking and waiting to be let in by someone inside) Also if they lock automatically, why would they need to be "locked from the outside" as the author says?
 
headednorth said:
This isnt how classroom locks function. This is a storeroom lock, similar to the entrance to an apartment building. I cant see how this would work in a school, but Im not a teacher and havent been in school in years. Every time the door closed, the next person would need to be let in by someone inside which would inevitably lead to doors being propped open. (picture 20 students filing in in dribs and drabs, each one knocking and waiting to be let in by someone inside) Also if they lock automatically, why would they need to be "locked from the outside" as the author says?
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Classroom locks can either lock automatically or not when closed depending on if they are left locked or unlocked. Storeroom locks do not have the unlock option.

Inexcusable for the PD not to have a master key. I wonder if they even asked the janitor "which one is the master". Other options to the halligan tool are an pneumatic door frame spreader (nice for steel framed doors) and a shaped charge.
 

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