Everyone please stop feeding the troll. Just put him on ignore.
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21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas
- Thread starter DispositionMatrix
- Start date
Artifact
NES Member
This is a clusterf*** of epic proportions based on everything coming out as of now. Barricaded can be constructed as many other things, which becomes a mute point considering the situation at hand.
Useful actions is a loaded term. They stopped him from moving further into the school. I'm not saying it was an optimal response, but 'doing nothing' isn't quite the same thing. The narrative was 'cops were outside doing nothing', when it appears they were in the school, didn't think to grab a key and a couple desks, counter barricade the door, unlock door and enter.
I can do it too. I'm still going off the information that there were indeed officers in the hallway, at this point all information is suspect.
I'm not in disagreement. But it doesn't sound like it was as completely off the rails as the initial report at least. At least until I find out my latest information is bad.
Lowbird
NES Member
slugworth
NES Member
Texas school shooting: Official says Uvalde commander made 'wrong decision' during massacre
Salvador Ramos gunned down 19 children and two teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday after barricading himself inside a classroom, authorities say.
www.foxnews.com
Artifact
NES Member
Of course not, hence my comment few pages back on let’s get more info coming through. Also, considering the strange times we live in I don’t trust anything coming through.
Having the bortac dudes just waiting to take action as these clowns tried figuring out which term is appropriate with which action is moronic.
Remember more people win the Powerball than these events happen every year.
Or a tornado might hit the school. Can't let this eat into you just because it's a huge news story.
I'm hoping there were cameras in the hallway, that should be standard at every school, recorded off site.
I want to see video time stamps of what happened when. Then I'll make an absolute opinion of what happened.
Thats not necessarily how ICS works. The IC is whoever is agreed to be the IC. Just because there's a moron who has jurisdiction does not mean that person will remain the IC, often times it is passed to more important/useful/knowledge people when they arrive if the starting IC is some moron from a 6 person department who has no idea what they're doing.
The IC should be public knowledge its not kept secret. Handoffs of IC should also be known to all, after all everyone there needs to know who the IC is.
For instance, if I responded to a fire on an Engine and I was the LT that day I would technically be the IC on arrival. I would pass command to the 1st officer who arrives who outranks me, mostly because I'd be balls deep dealing with the fire and unable to see the entire picture. That person would pass IC onto the Deputy Chief whose in charge of the entire shift. That person would potentially pass IC onto the department chief if the fire is big enough. Usually if it's 3 alarms or higher the Deputy Chief will pass command or have command taken from him by the chief.
It all depends on a million things. the ICS system is ok but its also a pain in the ass and next to no one knows it very well as it's boring and bloated. The irony is it's supposed to streamline everything.
Sometimes at huge fires, like the one at the San Diego Naval Yard there are 2 IC's who don't get along. In that case it was the shit tier local Naval Yard fire department with their own IC and the San Diego fire department with their IC who apparently had such little faith in the Naval Yards IC they refused to fall under their command. That's unusual but it does happen.
There may actually be some good information coming out, the on scene 'commander' has been called out:
“Any firing afterwards was sporadic and it was at the door,” McCraw continued. “So the belief is that there may not be anybody living anymore and that the subject is now trying to keep law enforcement at bay or enticing them to come in and suicide [by cop].”
McCraw made the remark after saying the incident commander on-scene, Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District Chief of Police Pete Arredondo, made a decision to transition the law enforcement response to the event toward a barricaded subject situation, and away from an active shooter one.
McCraw later called it the “wrong decision, period.”
They aren't circling the wagons on this one, good to hear. This needs to be a learning event, those kids paid a hard price for us to not learn.
McCraw: There was a belief there ‘may not be anybody living anymore’ inside Uvalde classroom
Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steven McCraw said Friday that when officers were responding to Robb Elementary School, “there was a barrage – hundreds of rounds were pumped in, in four minutes,” into two classrooms inside the school.“Any firing afterwards was sporadic and it was at the door,” McCraw continued. “So the belief is that there may not be anybody living anymore and that the subject is now trying to keep law enforcement at bay or enticing them to come in and suicide [by cop].”
McCraw made the remark after saying the incident commander on-scene, Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District Chief of Police Pete Arredondo, made a decision to transition the law enforcement response to the event toward a barricaded subject situation, and away from an active shooter one.
McCraw later called it the “wrong decision, period.”
They aren't circling the wagons on this one, good to hear. This needs to be a learning event, those kids paid a hard price for us to not learn.
I believe you mean a "moo" point.
- Joey Tribiani
I'm not diving back through this thread, but does anyone know the ISD's Police Chief's history? It would be a nice followup to this post.
I've run into juris-my-diction issues in the past on accident scenes and what not. I never held onto IC after someone showed up, but I've seen cops and fire/medics get into it.
kevin9
NES Member
G'DF'nDamnIt!
The IC was apparently the school department equivalent of a mall-rent-a-cop, not even local police. Apparently the same idiot who did not have an SRO assigned to the elementary school as a matter of policy, keeping them all at the middle and high school. I understand it's "your school' but if you ain't got the training or cajones to deal with the incident then be a real man and step aside so someone who does can.
Artifact
NES Member
We might actually get some answers considering the two different entities responding to it. It would be hard to get anything if just the local donut lovers were there. The incompetence is so staggering that these clowns would fold under internal investigation. They are too stupid.
This goes hand in hand with my other comment saying 99% of these guys are useless.
I was part of an observing team in an active shooter training with the MA finest and the SP tac team couldn’t figure out which floor was which from the mall’s schematic blueprint.
Artifact
NES Member
Usually the IC is the first responding entity on the scene.
yes, i said that in my example.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
And I also noted that it's usually passed or taken soon after.
safetyfirst2125
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Exactly, if you talked to him last week, I doubt he'd have been so clear cut on it.
kevin9
NES Member
That's the theory. Obviously didn't happen in this case, or the local police were even more inept than the school cops. I wonder if in this case jurisdiction was seen as more important than competence or training.
I've never seen fire and police fight over IC as the type of call that would give enough overlap for both to want to have IC is quite rare. And in those cases if both parties could not agree then there would simply be 2 IC's on scene. One for the fire department and one for the people who failed the fire academy and became cops.
And to reiterate, the DPS director literally stated that what they were suppose to do is stack up and immediately find and then engage the shooter. It seems like at least the first three or four guys made an attempt, and failed.
After that though, apparently they just gave up entirely and waited for the goddamn border patrol to do something. That’s not even their job! Talk about shirking responsibility!
They had at least 19 guys there and not a single one of them thought to make any plan of action? Instead felt inaction was the best plan? Meanwhile there are kids and teachers inside calling for, begging for help. And nothing?
If it turns out that those who called 911 while the police were there ended up being killed, heads need to roll. It’s inexcusable.
After that though, apparently they just gave up entirely and waited for the goddamn border patrol to do something. That’s not even their job! Talk about shirking responsibility!
They had at least 19 guys there and not a single one of them thought to make any plan of action? Instead felt inaction was the best plan? Meanwhile there are kids and teachers inside calling for, begging for help. And nothing?
If it turns out that those who called 911 while the police were there ended up being killed, heads need to roll. It’s inexcusable.
But it's the SOP. Don't like the SOP, go be a mall cop.
That seems to be what happened. Can't disagree.
Hey, I've never run from gunfire. Pretty damn sure I would have done something different. But throw in the dynamic of a IC who is telling everyone to do something else, I could see some getting caught in a Goofy loop instead of an OODA loop.
Artifact
NES Member
Not going to lie, I only glanced at the first sentenceyes, i said that in my example.
And I also noted that it's usually passed or taken soon after.
We have evidently turned into a nation of selfish cowards. Nobody is willing to risk their life to save others. At least this is the mentality of cops.
Paul even said it very early in this thread. Cops are just there to collect a paycheck. They have families to get home to. Best to just hide and let someone else handle it. Not your kids, not your problem.
Look at every thread with a similar topic. The common position espoused from cops is that their number one priority is to go home safely.
Cowards make the worst cops.
Paul even said it very early in this thread. Cops are just there to collect a paycheck. They have families to get home to. Best to just hide and let someone else handle it. Not your kids, not your problem.
Look at every thread with a similar topic. The common position espoused from cops is that their number one priority is to go home safely.
Cowards make the worst cops.
safetyfirst2125
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Welp. I guess this case closes that argument.
It used to be “you don’t need a gun, call a cop.”
It used to be “you don’t need a gun, call a cop.”
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