21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

Can anyone answer my question on the active shooter SOP in that once an active shooter is declared that that designation and thus SOP doesn't change until the shooter is in custody or eliminated?

Because if that is the SOP, then it is irrelevant if the shooter is barricaded or not, police have to go in and face the bullets to take out shooter ASAP.

We'd need to be familiar with the SOP of that particular department, plus whatever guidelines the TX DPS puts out, as well as a bunch more laws and policies. I doubt anyone on NES can honestly answer your question.
 
As it turns out, at least my old guy(s) did the right thing, while off duty it seems. At least one of them. That whole department needs a cleansing if all of this is true.

It turns into a barricaded subject when he's barricaded and normal entry methods don't work. But someone should have been right outside the door/hallway to seal him in there, worst case. It appears no one did that either.

The border patrol guys were the real heroes here. The regular PD were about as close to keystone cops as you can get.
 
See post immediately above yours.

Well, sure, but that's the same thing I and other NESers have been saying for two days now. That's common sense.

I thought you were asking what the criteria were that makes an "active shooter" an "active shooter." You'd think that's common sense too, but maybe not.
 
Did not read this whole thread (sorry)
But is it weird to anyone that he bought TWO Daniel Defense rifles ($4000+ for two) + body armor + at least 375 rounds
So a $5k+ day for a kid with a fed prohibited father, living with his fed prohibited grandfather + all the other disfunction when he is 18
Looks like he comes from failures yet he has 5k+ at 18?

Why the upper middle end ARs??? he is in Texas he could have walked out with a $500 poverty rifle
 

[Texas DPS director Steven] McGraw then outlines what the correct action should have been: “When there’s an active shooter, the rules change. It’s no longer a barricaded subject. You don’t have time. You don’t worry about outer perimeters. And by the way, Texas embraces active shooter training, active shooter certification.

“That doctrine requires officers, we don’t care what agency you’re from, you don’t have to have a leader on the scene. Every officer lines up, stacks up, goes and finds where those rounds are being fired and keeps shooting until the subject is dead. Period.
So am I correct when I say that once an active shooter is declared that the SOP never changes?
 
So am I correct when I say that once an active shooter is declared that the SOP never changes?

Beyond that, are they mutually exclusive designations? In other words, if he's hiding in a room but still shooting is he barricaded and not an active shooter? Because that would be retarded.
 
Jesus, this just keeps getting worse.



11:27 - Teacher props locked door open
11:28 - Ramos crashes across street, starts shooting, police called
11:31 - School resource officer drives by Ramos, mistaking a teacher for the shooter after hearing call on radio
11:33 - Ramos enters school through door that teacher propped open
11:35 to 11:40 - Cops arrive and enter, are fired upon through classroom door, stop outside classroom door
11:50 to 12:03 - 19 cops gather in hall outside door
12:00 to 12:15 - Border Patrol tactical team members arrive and are kept out of school by local commander
12:03 - Teacher calls 911 and says where shooter is
12:15 - Teacher calls back and says some kids still alive
12:50 - Border Patrol enters and kills shooter.

I don't see any way to interpret this other than there was a crowd of cops in the corridor outside the room while Ramos was killing kids and the teachers. He clearly didn't enter and kill them all right away if the teacher (and some kids in the room) were repeatedly calling 911.

And what must the jackass who propped the door open (likely to avoid having to go through the "normal" entry procedure after stepping outside) be thinking right now?

This timeline is what I thought I understood as well and if true, paints the actions (lack of) of all who were in the hallway in a very bad light.
 
Beyond that, are they mutually exclusive designations? In other words, if he's hiding in a room but still shooting is he barricaded and not an active shooter? Because that would be retarded.
You two are talking about very dynamic situations. I'd be willing to bet no two SME's would agree as to when, if ever, it crosses the line from one to another.
 
Beyond that, are they mutually exclusive designations? In other words, if he's hiding in a room but still shooting is he barricaded and not an active shooter? Because that would be retarded.
Yes, and it would be. Texas DPS stated that if he's shooting, it's an active shooter, barricade or no.
 
This timeline is what I thought I understood as well and if true, paints the actions (lack of) of all who were in the hallway in a very bad light.
The only thing I want to know is when did the green shirts show up and what did they do. I know some went in, but if they sat back, I'd be severely disappointed.

It is interesting all the 'cops sat around for an hour' BS, while 30 minutes is a long time, it appears they had guys in the hallway and took fire when they tried to initially enter the classroom.
So, if there were cops in the hallway at 11:37, then letting the parents rush the school would be a terrible idea. I stand by that from a purely tactical mindset. So maybe, just maybe, it wasn't as bad as it seems, but not a textbook response to dealing with it.
 
The whole barricaded thing was nothing less than an obvious excuse to attempt to justify deadly incompetence.
Taking the statements at face value, the initial 3 cops tried to enter the classroom, the door was locked and they took hits through the door.

I'm not exactly leaning towards it being a clean op by any means, but standing in a locked doorway taking hits is a tough row to hoe.
 
The only thing I want to know is when did the green shirts show up and what did they do. I know some went in, but if they sat back, I'd be severely disappointed.

It is interesting all the 'cops sat around for an hour' BS, while 30 minutes is a long time, it appears they had guys in the hallway and took fire when they tried to initially enter the classroom.
So, if there were cops in the hallway at 11:37, then letting the parents rush the school would be a terrible idea. I stand by that from a purely tactical mindset. So maybe, just maybe, it wasn't as bad as it seems, but not a textbook response to dealing with it.
11:27 - Teacher props locked door open
11:28 - Ramos crashes across street, starts shooting, police called
11:31 - School resource officer drives by Ramos, mistaking a teacher for the shooter after hearing call on radio
11:33 - Ramos enters school through door that teacher propped open
11:35 to 11:40 - Cops arrive and enter, are fired upon through classroom door, stop outside classroom door
11:50 to 12:03 - 19 cops gather in hall outside door
12:00 to 12:15 - Border Patrol tactical team members arrive and are kept out of school by local commander
12:03 - Teacher calls 911 and says where shooter is
12:15 - Teacher calls back and says some kids still alive
12:50 - Border Patrol enters and kills shooter.
 
He's talking specifically about this situation. How is that a "general comment" ?
My comment, for crying out loud. It's possible for it to be a barricaded situation and still have an active shooter. If you can't get into the area, it's barricaded. Some people will have different takes on that.
 
My comment, for crying out loud. It's possible for it to be a barricaded situation and still have an active shooter. If you can't get into the area, it's barricaded. Some people will have different takes on that.
Apparently that list would include the Texas DPS.
 
Taking the statements at face value, the initial 3 cops tried to enter the classroom, the door was locked and they took hits through the door.

I'm not exactly leaning towards it being a clean op by any means, but standing in a locked doorway taking hits is a tough row to hoe.
I am sure those more knowledgeable than me will weigh in, but in your scenario, one guy can start laying suppressing fire at about 5 feet height through the door, while two other guys lay prone ten feet down either hall and start blasting away at an upward trajectory thru the door. If someone has a rifle aim a bunch of rounds at the door handle. After a minute, have someone take a quick kick at it (if there are no rounds coming through it), proceed.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but still.
 
fact: he was barricaded in a classroom. fact: he had ample cover. fact: he may have had hostages. the cops did not know.
Yes he was barricaded in the room. Yes there were still children hiding in the two rooms. But they were not hostages. An interview with a survivor that I posted earlier said that the murderer was shooting anyone he found alive. He was not keeping anyone alive. That's not a hostage situation, but is much closer to an ongoing active shooter situation where the current SOP is immediate and direct engagement as quickly as possible.
 
So, if there were cops in the hallway at 11:37, then letting the parents rush the school would be a terrible idea. I stand by that from a purely tactical mindset.

Nobody actually wanted the parents to go in. They wanted the cops who were there to do something. It’s great that there were a bunch of cops on scene quickly. But it’s absolutely meaningless if they show up and don’t take any useful actions. Hiding around the corner in a hallway doesn’t do a whole lot of good when there’s someone on the other side murdering children.
 
I don't know about anyone else but this thread is starting to sound like it belongs in the police protecting and serving thread. These aholes saved their own kids and then stood by and stopped parents from saving their own. I'm guessing that there are going to be some resignations at the Uvalde PD in the near future. In my mind every cop that was there and did nothing should be charged as an accessory to murder.
It's not their job to protect you or the public in general.

 
It's not their job to protect you or the public in general.


So sounds like we don't need cops or cops trying to prevent citizens from rescuing their own kids.
 
I am sure those more knowledgeable than me will weigh in, but in your scenario, one guy can start laying suppressing fire at about 5 feet height through the door, while two other guys lay prone ten feet down either hall and start blasting away at an upward trajectory thru the door. If someone has a rifle aim a bunch of rounds at the door handle. After a minute, have someone take a quick kick at it (if there are no rounds coming through it), proceed.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but still.
Whoa. It sounds good until there is still people inside the room. I know I've swung back and forth on Schrodinger's Kids, but shooting into a room without having a viable target, I'm guessing with pistols, or even rifles is bad juju. Although in hindsight, it couldn't have had a worse outcome. Projectiles do some crazy things when going through barriers.

It's just not something anyone I've ever heard of doing.
 
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