“I didn’t know it was a machine gun!” - Not Guilty

[MaverickNH]

Short Circuit: A Roundup of Recent Federal Court Decisions

Wedding officiants, teaser profiles, and administrative animals.

reason.com

”Puerto Rican drug trafficker is arrested, and the ensuing search turns up a 9mm pistol. Whoa! It's been modified to fire fully automatic—it's a machine gun! The trafficker is charged with possession of a machine gun in furtherance of a drug crime, which carries a 30-year sentence. He objects that he had no idea the pistol was modified—he was holding it temporarily for his boss—and asks for a jury instruction requiring the gov't prove he knew the pistol had been modified. The district court denies the instruction, and he's convicted. First Circuit: Vacated. "The contention that an injury can amount to a crime only when inflicted by intention is … as universal and persistent in mature systems of law as belief in freedom of the human will and a consequent ability and duty of the normal individual to choose between good and evil."

Where mere possession of an automatic firearm is not a crime - if you didn’t know it was an automatic firearm. Could this be a precedent to claim in some states that you didn’t know your banned long gun was an assault weapon? The analogy isn’t perfect, but worth a try (If you’re already charged, that is).

 

[Mesatchornug]

And in the First Circuit!

 

[Bigfudge16]

with the convoluted state of massachusetts laws, how should i know if what i bought is legal or not?

 

[appraiser]

and if it wasn't for some early 20th century law that banned them for the most part, and GCA 68, which MAY be unconstitutional in light of Bruen, and I argue burst fire or automatic semi'auto's ( G18) WOULD be in wide circulation and in the hands of lawful citizens if not for unconstitutional laws that prevented us from having them

 

[Dench]

and if it wasn't for some early 20th century law that banned them for the most part, and GCA 68, which MAY be unconstitutional in light of Bruen, and I argue burst fire or automatic semi'auto's ( G18) WOULD be in wide circulation and in the hands of lawful citizens if not for unconstitutional laws that prevented us from having them

Miller already hashed that shit out. if the military uses it (specifically it seems small arms wise), it's ok.

That's how those morons justified the short barrel shotgun ban. Apparently at the time the military wasn't using SBS's ergo, it wasn't converted under the 2A.

At the end of the day a gun is a gun. Why we differentiate which is eviler is dumb.

 

[Uzi2]

Short Circuit: A Roundup of Recent Federal Court Decisions

Wedding officiants, teaser profiles, and administrative animals.

reason.com

”Puerto Rican drug trafficker is arrested, and the ensuing search turns up a 9mm pistol. Whoa! It's been modified to fire fully automatic—it's a machine gun! The trafficker is charged with possession of a machine gun in furtherance of a drug crime, which carries a 30-year sentence. He objects that he had no idea the pistol was modified—he was holding it temporarily for his boss—and asks for a jury instruction requiring the gov't prove he knew the pistol had been modified. The district court denies the instruction, and he's convicted. First Circuit: Vacated. "The contention that an injury can amount to a crime only when inflicted by intention is … as universal and persistent in mature systems of law as belief in freedom of the human will and a consequent ability and duty of the normal individual to choose between good and evil."

Where mere possession of an automatic firearm is not a crime - if you didn’t know it was an automatic firearm. Could this be a precedent to claim in some states that you didn’t know your banned long gun was an assault weapon? The analogy isn’t perfect, but worth a try (If you’re already charged, that is).

Like possession of a drug with the intent to distribute.

"Intent" cannot be proven. The crime of "distribution" has to be committed.

It's like trying to charge and convict someone of speeding just because they bought a car that will do 200mph. Until they put the pedal to the floor and speed beyond a posted limit, there is no crime.

 

[mu2bdriver]

Good. Anything that makes a conviction harder is fine with me.

This one was even more interesting:

Huntsville, Ala. officers: When we told man—who we suspected of messing with a car that wasn't his—to produce ID, he jumped up and waved his hands in a physically threatening manner! Which gave us arguable probable cause to arrest. Eleventh Circuit: The four separate video cameras that captured this moment show nothing of the sort. No qualified immunity.

 

[headednorth]

Where mere possession of an automatic firearm is not a crime - if you didn’t know it was an automatic firearm. Could this be a precedent to claim in some states that you didn’t know your banned long gun was an assault weapon? The analogy isn’t perfect, but worth a try (If you’re already charged, that is).

If youre Puerto Rican, or Black, or a woman, or gay or a tranny or a leftist or Jewish or a Muslim, etc it may work, but otherwise...

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I don’t think
Ignorance of the law
or
Ignorance is a valid defense

 

[Mesatchornug]

Miller already hashed that shit out. if the military uses it (specifically it seems small arms wise), it's ok.

That's how those morons justified the short barrel shotgun ban. Apparently at the time the military wasn't using SBS's ergo, it wasn't converted under the 2A.

At the end of the day a gun is a gun. Why we differentiate which is eviler is dumb.

Best of all, we were using SBS at the time in the US military...

 

[Mesatchornug]

I don’t think
Ignorance of the law
or
Ignorance is a valid defense

This isn't ignorance of the law. This is ignorance of factual possession. Not dissimilar to "I didn't know that gun was in my bag."

 

[Dench]

Best of all, we were using SBS at the time in the US military...

Who knows how they qualified it.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Who knows how they qualified it.

They stopped trying when Miller died. IIRC, one of the judges said "I served; we didn't use them; they're not protected" failing to know that, in fact, we did.

 

[1sern]

Short Circuit: A Roundup of Recent Federal Court Decisions

Wedding officiants, teaser profiles, and administrative animals.

reason.com

”Puerto Rican drug trafficker is arrested, and the ensuing search turns up a 9mm pistol. Whoa! It's been modified to fire fully automatic—it's a machine gun! The trafficker is charged with possession of a machine gun in furtherance of a drug crime, which carries a 30-year sentence. He objects that he had no idea the pistol was modified—he was holding it temporarily for his boss—and asks for a jury instruction requiring the gov't prove he knew the pistol had been modified. The district court denies the instruction, and he's convicted. First Circuit: Vacated. "The contention that an injury can amount to a crime only when inflicted by intention is … as universal and persistent in mature systems of law as belief in freedom of the human will and a consequent ability and duty of the normal individual to choose between good and evil."

Where mere possession of an automatic firearm is not a crime - if you didn’t know it was an automatic firearm. Could this be a precedent to claim in some states that you didn’t know your banned long gun was an assault weapon? The analogy isn’t perfect, but worth a try (If you’re already charged, that is).

Hispanic lesbian Graciela Paulino was let off easy when pulled over with Pot and an SBS in her car. Both a state and Fed felony Charges dismissed from lack of prosecution on 1/20/16. She later got in trouble in Dracut after threatening a McDonalds employee with a realistic looking BB gun then resisted police and struggled against them and medical personnel when taken for evaluation.

She then became more famous:

The Lowell Beaver Bumping Murderer Previously Did Interview With Lowell Sun Calling For An End To Violence, Dad Shows Up To Threaten The Families Of Turtle Riders Talking Shit About His Seed

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turtleboysports.com

Lowell woman gets 7 to 8 years in fatal shooting

LOWELL — A young woman convicted of voluntary manslaughter in a fatal 2018 road-rage shooting in Lowell was sentenced to seven to eight years in state prison Friday. Graciela Paulino, 22, was also…

www.lowellsun.com

 

[1sern]

Miller already hashed that shit out. if the military uses it (specifically it seems small arms wise), it's ok.

That's how those morons justified the short barrel shotgun ban. Apparently at the time the military wasn't using SBS's ergo, it wasn't converted under the 2A.

At the end of the day a gun is a gun. Why we differentiate which is eviler is dumb.

That seems to be what was usually defended as protected in early US law. Outlawed weapons would be considered useless for militia, small concealable pistols, knives Though one state, maybe NC,( not looking it up now) that outlawed some knives that were not useful for the military later had to prioritize getting them for their CSA troops who found them useful in the field.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I don’t think
Ignorance of the law
or
Ignorance is a valid defense

It is not ignorance of the law, but ignorance of the knowledge you are committing a crime.

For example, if a rental car had contraband hidden in the spare tire, would the renter be convicted absent evidence he knew it was there?

What of the guy who brought a disassembled gun in a stuffed toy through a TSA search point - but the investigation revealed his wife put it there deliberately to get in jammed up (presumable as part of a divorce strategy). Should that person be convicted absent knowledge of the gun?

 

[MaverickNH]

It is not ignorance of the law, but ignorance of the knowledge you are committing a crime.

For example, if a rental car had contraband hidden in the spare tire, would the renter be convicted absent evidence he knew it was there?

What of the guy who brought a disassembled gun in a stuffed toy through a TSA search point - but the investigation revealed his wife put it there deliberately to get in jammed up (presumable as part of a divorce strategy). Should that person be convicted absent knowledge of the gun?

To that end, installation of firearms accessories that can turn a rifle into an “assault rifle” is ignorance of the law in some states. How about owning an FAL built from a parts kit and semi-auto receiver that clearly has several new after-market parts w/o a “Made in the USA” stamp? Is one required to positively assure compliance? Or owning a rifle that has a F/S selector but has other internals configured for auto/select fire? These are specific cases covered by specific Federal laws that can treat possession as intent.

None of this helps gun owners in general. Ignorance of the knowledge you are committing a crime is of limited utility. Individuals, in specific circumstances, might avoid charges/convictions (hence, no J6 Federal insurrection charge for Trump).

 

[Dennis in MA]

First circuit acknowledging intent??? Wow. WOW.