Zeroing rifles...

[mx250man]

All other things being equal, I find I enjoy shooting with optics more than irons - be it a 1x red dot or magnifying scope. Much easier on my eyes and I can shoot enjoyably longer. However, some guns (especially C&Rs) are iron sight only. Many shoots are limited to iron sights. At least for the foreseeable future, learning iron sights is a must for even a somewhat rounded shooter. However, I think optics are generally "easier", and as such, are a reasonable starting point for a beginner. If they become more serious they can always work to master the irons, and open up the wider shooting options that iron sights bring.

 

[Coyote33]

Am I the only one that thinks kids shouldn't be using optics?

I refuse to let me kids use optics. As fubar said, one needs to understand sight alignment and sight picture. And I don't think that you can do that with optics. ...

Wait, aren't scopes also a method of sight alignment and sight picture?

What is your reason for this? Just to get them to know the old way first? Kind of like using a bow saw before a chain saw?


Blindfire, what scope is that? 4X?

 

[mx250man]

And as far as zeroing the scope goes - the scope manual should indicate the MOA per "click" of adjustment. An MOA is 1" at 100yd, .25" at 25yd, and .1" at 10yd. So just get a piece of paper or cardboard big enough to capture the shots (you can just tape a bunch of sheets of paper together - don't be proud), shoot enough shots with a stable base to get a good idea of the group center, and then measure the vertical and horizontal distance from the group center to the point of aim. Then figure out how many "clicks" to adjust the scope to that point (you want to adjust the scope towards the point of aim - "up" if the shots are low, "right" if the shots are left), and that should move the group center to the point of aim. For example, if the scope says a click is 1 MOA, and you shoot 4" low at 25yd, you need to adjust 4" divided by .25" per MOA = 16 MOA = 16 clicks. Fine tune from there, if needed.

 

[C-pher]

Wait, aren't scopes also a method of sight alignment and sight picture?

What is your reason for this? Just to get them to know the old way first? Kind of like using a bow saw before a chain saw?


Blindfire, what scope is that? 4X?

No, the reason is when the scope fails...what are they going to do if they don't know how to shoot a rifle? Same reason why I don't promote putting a laser on the gun. Drop it, battery dies, whatever causes it to fail...you need to use your gun and you don't know how to shoot it if you don't know how to use the sights properly.

This is the same reason I won't by a Vette for my kids first car. They will get a cash car that will safely get them around until they can prove they know what they are doing. I'll also make them show me they know how to drive a stick before they get their licenses. If they ever get into a situation where the person they are with is impaired and is in need of someone else to drive...if the driver is the only one that can drive a stick...who's going to get them there safely?

I would rather give my kids the means to get by on their own if the need arises. That's why I believe in this.


NOW! After reading blindfire's latest post...I understand why he's doing this and that's a different situation all together.

 

[mx250man]

The difference is that your kid might decide not to shoot, but they certainly will decide to drive. Maybe better to do whatever helps them enjoy and pursue shooting than to turn them off and push them away from it. If, for whatever reason, using optics helps a new shooter enjoy and continue shooting - go for it. There is always time to learn irons if they continue shooting, but if they don't choose to shoot, it just doesn't matter. Everyones situation is different, and each parent needs to know their children and decide the appropriate course of action.

 

[Coyote33]

No, the reason is when the scope fails...what are they going to do if they don't know how to shoot a rifle? ...

They go to a store and get another scope?

 

[Terminator03]

All other things being equal, I find I enjoy shooting with optics more than irons - be it a 1x red dot or magnifying scope. Much easier on my eyes and I can shoot enjoyably longer. However, some guns (especially C&Rs) are iron sight only. Many shoots are limited to iron sights. At least for the foreseeable future, learning iron sights is a must for even a somewhat rounded shooter. However, I think optics are generally "easier", and as such, are a reasonable starting point for a beginner. If they become more serious they can always work to master the irons, and open up the wider shooting options that iron sights bring.

Wait, aren't scopes also a method of sight alignment and sight picture?

What is your reason for this? Just to get them to know the old way first? Kind of like using a bow saw before a chain saw?


Blindfire, what scope is that? 4X?

I am on the same page as these guys. Not to discount the importance of having a good basic grasp of using irons, but with all of the superb optics available I think it's kind of old school thinking to say that someone NEEDS to master iron sights before they can proceed onto optics. Obviously irons are necessary to be proficient with for anyone who wishes to carry a defensive handgun, but rifles are a different story. Inmo, as long as you have a decent grasp of how to line the sight picture up, there is no need to be a designated marksman on them because in most cases these days, irons are just back up sights in case your battery dies or your optic gets damaged. It's not like most people are going to be taking 600yd. sniper shots on irons anyway. Personally speaking, my eyes aren't good enough anymore to practically use irons for anything over 50yds anyway, so for me they are strictly backup.

 

[C-pher]

They go to a store and get another scope?

In the middle of the woods on a Sunday morning after sitting out there for a few hours? Guess you're not eating dinner this winter.

 

[C-pher]

I am on the same page as these guys. Not to discount the importance of having a good basic grasp of using irons, but with all of the superb optics available I think it's kind of old school thinking to say that someone NEEDS to master iron sights before they can proceed onto optics. Obviously irons are necessary to be proficient with for anyone who wishes to carry a defensive handgun, but rifles are a different story. Inmo, as long as you have a decent grasp of how to line the sight picture up, there is no need to be a designated marksman on them because in most cases these days, irons are just back up sights in case your battery dies or your optic gets damaged. It's not like most people are going to be taking 600yd. sniper shots on irons anyway. Personally speaking, my eyes aren't good enough anymore to practically use irons for anything over 50yds anyway, so for me they are strictly backup.

I understand what you guys are saying, but I believe that you need to understand the basics before you move ahead. It's like that with everything in our lives. You don't just jump to Calc...you need to learn basic math.

And my kids are in Jr Marksmanships, and there's no optics there...so if they want to get better, they need to work on proper sight alignment.

I'm lucky that both my 7 and 9 year old daughters chase the bullseye and a better score than their last target. They haven't shot optics yet, so they don't really know the difference.

But I guess I'm still in believe in understanding the basics before you move on in anything in your life...and this is one of them.

I'm not saying that Optics aren't more fun. It does make shooting a lot easier...I like my scopes as well. So I'm not knocking using them...I'm just saying that one should know how to shoot without them as well. I see a lot of people that can shoot at the range with an optic...and when I let them use any of my rifles to hit a jug at the 50 yard berm...they can't do it.

I think that it's fun to do both.

 

[DemonChronicles]

I'm a firm believer in starting with the irons first. Otherwise, those kids will be lost when the battery dies.

 

[Terminator03]

I understand what you guys are saying, but I believe that you need to understand the basics before you move ahead. It's like that with everything in our lives. You don't just jump to Calc...you need to learn basic math.

And my kids are in Jr Marksmanships, and there's no optics there...so if they want to get better, they need to work on proper sight alignment.

I'm lucky that both my 7 and 9 year old daughters chase the bullseye and a better score than their last target. They haven't shot optics yet, so they don't really know the difference.

But I guess I'm still in believe in understanding the basics before you move on in anything in your life...and this is one of them.

I'm not saying that Optics aren't more fun. It does make shooting a lot easier...I like my scopes as well. So I'm not knocking using them...I'm just saying that one should know how to shoot without them as well. I see a lot of people that can shoot at the range with an optic...and when I let them use any of my rifles to hit a jug at the 50 yard berm...they can't do it.

I think that it's fun to do both.

I totally understand your perspective as well, and would never say that their is anything wrong with starting off your training on irons. Where we sort of differ in opinion (I think) is in the line of thought that they are skills that must be learned in a specific sequence. I see them as kind of separate skills which don't necessarily matter which order they are learned in as both are equally important to learn. My thought is that you can get anyone (kids or adults) successfully hitting the target faster with a good optic so they will be more inclined to want to continue in the sport if they have success early on. There is plenty of time at any point later on to fine tune skills and learn new ones such as hitting the targets with just the BUIS, or plain irons if its an older type rifle. I equate this in much the same way as when I went through high school and college most of my drafting classes were done on a board with triangles, straightedges, and pencils. In college I got my first exposure to Autocad, and they had concurrent classes both on CAD and on the board manually. Now they don't even bother with teaching drafting on the board because EVERYONE uses CAD in industry now. Old timers may say that you should still learn the fundamentals on paper first, but most people don't see the need these days. For better or worse technology is here to stay. This can be applied to many different things we take for granted. Another way to think of it is, should a tire store worker be required to work for his first couple of years with a rubber hammer and tire spoons to break down and change tires before moving onto the pneumatic breakdown machine? Or maybe use a bubble balancer for awhile prior to moving on to an electronic spin balancer? I hope you can see what I'm saying here and not take it in a negative way, just trying to show a different perspective.

 

[rjh200]

It helps a lot to be sure one understands sight alignment , sight picture , their sights' adjustments , MOA theory , and the ability put several shots consistently together.. And double check proper and correct sight mounting , have half way decent ammo , and a stable rest to shoot from.
.

Any suggestions on gaining said knowledge for a relatively new rifle shooter?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

 

[C-pher]

I totally understand your perspective as well, and would never say that their is anything wrong with starting off your training on irons. Where we sort of differ in opinion (I think) is in the line of thought that they are skills that must be learned in a specific sequence. I see them as kind of separate skills which don't necessarily matter which order they are learned in as both are equally important to learn. My thought is that you can get anyone (kids or adults) successfully hitting the target faster with a good optic so they will be more inclined to want to continue in the sport if they have success early on. There is plenty of time at any point later on to fine tune skills and learn new ones such as hitting the targets with just the BUIS, or plain irons if its an older type rifle. I equate this in much the same way as when I went through high school and college most of my drafting classes were done on a board with triangles, straightedges, and pencils. In college I got my first exposure to Autocad, and they had concurrent classes both on CAD and on the board manually. Now they don't even bother with teaching drafting on the board because EVERYONE uses CAD in industry now. Old timers may say that you should still learn the fundamentals on paper first, but most people don't see the need these days. For better or worse technology is here to stay. This can be applied to many different things we take for granted. Another way to think of it is, should a tire store worker be required to work for his first couple of years with a rubber hammer and tire spoons to break down and change tires before moving onto the pneumatic breakdown machine? Or maybe use a bubble balancer for awhile prior to moving on to an electronic spin balancer? I hope you can see what I'm saying here and not take it in a negative way, just trying to show a different perspective.

I'm not taking it personal. I fully agree that everyone has a different way of doing this. But, the guy that learned how to use the pneumatic breakdown machine to change the tire...and that's all they know...when it breaks...and it will...how are they going to change a tire? They just lose money until they get someone out there to fix it? Or if it's a new shop, can't afford to fix it right away because of the cost...they are going to be out of a lot of money.

I agree, I learned how to use drafting tools in High School and College. I still have a leather bag of triangles, pencils, stencils and scales in my basement. I no longer use CAD, but when my Grandfather's PC died at the Shop, I could still break out a drawing, trace it on the board and change the plans for the sprinklers and hydrants and such as needed. If I only knew CAD and didn't have the tools to do that...my grandfather wouldn't have had a need to keep me around during the Summers.

My point is, if you're hunting because that's how you feed your family, and you drop your rifle and all you've done is shoot scopes...you're not going to get your meat for the Winter if you can't shoot iron sights. That's my point. While only learning the new stuff is great...if you don't have the basics to fall back on, you're going to have issues on anything you do in life.

It's why I'm happy the school that my kids go to, they don't let them use calculators. If they only used calculators, they never learn how to do math in their head or on paper. Yes, Paper, not on a tablet. LOL! Ok, the last part was a dig. HAHA


And thanks for the conversation. I think that this is a pretty good conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

Any suggestions on gaining said knowledge for a relatively new rifle shooter?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

Find someone to shoot with that does understand. And has the patience to teach.

 

[Terminator03]

I'm not taking it personal. I fully agree that everyone has a different way of doing this. But, the guy that learned how to use the pneumatic breakdown machine to change the tire...and that's all they know...when it breaks...and it will...how are they going to change a tire? They just lose money until they get someone out there to fix it? Or if it's a new shop, can't afford to fix it right away because of the cost...they are going to be out of a lot of money.

I agree, I learned how to use drafting tools in High School and College. I still have a leather bag of triangles, pencils, stencils and scales in my basement. I no longer use CAD, but when my Grandfather's PC died at the Shop, I could still break out a drawing, trace it on the board and change the plans for the sprinklers and hydrants and such as needed. If I only knew CAD and didn't have the tools to do that...my grandfather wouldn't have had a need to keep me around during the Summers.

My point is, if you're hunting because that's how you feed your family, and you drop your rifle and all you've done is shoot scopes...you're not going to get your meat for the Winter if you can't shoot iron sights. That's my point. While only learning the new stuff is great...if you don't have the basics to fall back on, you're going to have issues on anything you do in life.

It's why I'm happy the school that my kids go to, they don't let them use calculators. If they only used calculators, they never learn how to do math in their head or on paper. Yes, Paper, not on a tablet. LOL! Ok, the last part was a dig. HAHA


And thanks for the conversation. I think that this is a pretty good conversation.

- - - Updated - - -



Find someone to shoot with that does understand. And has the patience to teach.

I agree, it's a great conversation for once without a bunch of insults, or other crap that gets threads locked down. Yeah, I believe we are on the same page as to the importance of learning the manual basics, regardless of order. When I worked as an engineer, I found that having the manual skills was invaluable at times like the instance you cited as well as for making field adjustments to prints where having access to a pc just wasn't practical. Sadly, we are seeing an evolution away from basic manual skills, and unfortunately may see a time when kids will no longer be able to write out a simple math equation and solve it without a calculator, or their iphone.

 

[C-pher]

I agree, it's a great conversation for once without a bunch of insults, or other crap that gets threads locked down. Yeah, I believe we are on the same page as to the importance of learning the manual basics, regardless of order. When I worked as an engineer, I found that having the manual skills was invaluable at times like the instance you cited as well as for making field adjustments to prints where having access to a pc just wasn't practical. Sadly, we are seeing an evolution away from basic manual skills, and unfortunately may see a time when kids will no longer be able to write out a simple math equation and solve it without a calculator, or their iphone.

Hell, I'm already seeing it having an effect on how people type. Even people with a full keyboard are typing Me2, or RU or other things that make them sound stupid.

I'm not that old, and this stuff drives me nuts. LOL

 

[Terminator03]

Hell, I'm already seeing it having an effect on how people type. Even people with a full keyboard are typing Me2, or RU or other things that make them sound stupid.

I'm not that old, and this stuff drives me nuts. LOL

I'm not that old either, unless you ask my daughter who is just turning 12 this month. Anyway, my wife and I were just discussing this very thing you mention wrt texting abbreviations. I believe it is having a huge impact on kids and their ability to spell even the most basic words. It is a big pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm showing my age, but I refuse to use that shorthand when texting. I could understand even a few years ago when most phones just had alpha numeric keypads, but now almost all phones currently available have a full qwerty keyboard so there really is no excuse other than laziness at this point (another of my pet peeves with the current generation, once again showing my age I guess).

 

[C-pher]

I'm not that old either, unless you ask my daughter who is just turning 12 this month. Anyway, my wife and I were just discussing this very thing you mention wrt texting abbreviations. I believe it is having a huge impact on kids and their ability to spell even the most basic words. It is a big pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm showing my age, but I refuse to use that shorthand when texting. I could understand even a few years ago when most phones just had alpha numeric keypads, but now almost all phones currently available have a full qwerty keyboard so there really is no excuse other than laziness at this point (another of my pet peeves with the current generation, once again showing my age I guess).

My girls are 7 and 9, so you started earlier than I, or you're older than me. HAHAHA

But I agree...I refuse to use them as well. And I yell at my daughter when she uses them when texting me from the old iTouch that I gave her for her music when I got the new iPhone. So she doesn't use them either...she knows that I'll take the thing away from her. I'm a crotchety old bastard.

 

[60 buckscash]

Anyway, my wife and I were just discussing this very thing you mention *WRT* texting abbreviations.

This made me chuckle.....

In regards to the OP, start at a short distance and a big target. Once you get close then increase your distance to refine your zero. I find the gridded reactive targets to work the best.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[Coyote33]

No, the reason is when the scope fails...what are they going to do if they don't know how to shoot a rifle? ...

They go to a store and get another scope?

In the middle of the woods on a Sunday morning after sitting out there for a few hours? Guess you're not eating dinner this winter.

Um, this is a kid, using a Cricket .22 at the range. North Attleboro is basically a suburb, in Massachusetts, which does not allow hunting on Sundays. There are grocery stores around. I doubt your kids depend on harvesting game to stay alive, so I'm not really sure what the point of all this is.

Hell, I'm already seeing it having an effect on how people type. Even people with a full keyboard are typing Me2, or RU or other things that make them sound stupid.

I'm not that old, and this stuff drives me nuts. LOL

I'm not that old either, unless you ask my daughter who is just turning 12 this month. Anyway, my wife and I were just discussing this very thing you mention wrt texting abbreviations. I believe it is having a huge impact on kids and their ability to spell even the most basic words. It is a big pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm showing my age, but I refuse to use that shorthand when texting. I could understand even a few years ago when most phones just had alpha numeric keypads, but now almost all phones currently available have a full qwerty keyboard so there really is no excuse other than laziness at this point (another of my pet peeves with the current generation, once again showing my age I guess).

You guys do realize you just did what you said you don't like, right? (see abbreviations in red).

 

[C-pher]

They go to a store and get another scope?



Um, this is a kid, using a Cricket .22 at the range. North Attleboro is basically a suburb, in Massachusetts, which does not allow hunting on Sundays. There are grocery stores around. I doubt your kids depend on harvesting game to stay alive, so I'm not really sure what the point of all this is.







You guys do realize you just did what you said you don't like, right? (see abbreviations in red).

You're obviously not getting it. It's not about a kid at a range on Sunday. We're talking about when they grow up. You learn this stuff when you're a kid so when you become an adult...you know what to do. And, it's no longer about blindfire's kid, we're past that...it's about generalities. If you don't learn the basics, you don't have anything to fall back on...that's the point that you're missing.

 

[DemonChronicles]

You're obviously not getting it. It's not about a kid at a range on Sunday. We're talking about when they grow up. You learn this stuff when you're a kid so when you become an adult...you know what to do. And, it's no longer about blindfire's kid, we're past that...it's about generalities. If you don't learn the basics, you don't have anything to fall back on...that's the point that you're missing.

Winna-winna-chicken-dinna !