M-16 Era Ends: Army's 101st Airborne Division Receives Next-Gen Assault Rifles

[Darksideblues42]

Can anyone explain how these guns improve on the predecessors?

What technical enhancements make these things, mentioned in the quote above, possible?

Improved ballistics of the round itself, better aerodynamics allowing the round to remain more stable through the subsonic transition, flatter shooting trajectory, longer time at supersonic speeds, higher initial velocity of the round.

As to the suppressor/visual signature stuff, I can only presume the powder charge burns more cleanly and completely to provide the benefit of reduced visual report of a shot, and improvements in suppressor internals are reducing the sound report of a shot.

 

[LakeTrout]

This, I would be estatic hitting a 5 shot group under 12" at 600, this guy is a machine, far better than any shooters I practiced with back in the 80s to try and be part of the US Army Rifle Team.

Sounds like you just need to take a class at SIG, though. Then you and your AR will be dropping .3 MOA groups at 6 hundo and telling everyone on the internet they suck.

 

[PappyM3]

Can anyone explain how these guns improve on the predecessors?

What technical enhancements make these things, mentioned in the quote above, possible?

The XM7 gun itself isn’t anything fancy. But the cartridge has the performance of a 270 Winchester in a short action with a 13” barrel for maneuverability. And Sig’s barrel is claimed to last, I believe, 10k rounds even with that performance. It will come standard with a silencer to aid comms/control between squad members. And to aid the long range capability, it will have the XM157 optic that can function as a normal LPVO, but can also laze targets to get ranges and provide the ballistic solution to the soldier right on the reticle.

But when talking about the XM250, which replaces the M249, things get more interesting. It is lighter than the M249 saw, less recoil, but has better ballistics than the M240. The XM250 is likely to be a huge benefit for a fire team.

The new 6.8x51 cartridge will not just have longer legs, but will be better at barrier defeat and potentially armor defeat when close and loaded with the A1 style bullet. This picture shows the bullet style from the 5.56 M855A1 version.

When I handled them at Sig, they had the funky hexagonal suppressor shield on them. Looking online, I've only found a single photo of it. All other photos of them suppressed have the unshielded cans (SLX?). Sort of strange.

View attachment 868679


I'm having a hard time believing nearly doubling the weight is a good idea. Going from what, 7 pounds to a 12 pound rifle, is not insignificant.

Pretty cool getting to play with them. Fairness to the XM7 porker is that it’s only 8.5lbs by itself. Add the silencer though and you’re up to 10 pounds, and whatever that chonky XM157 weighs. Likely 12 pounds total, yeah.

But let’s not lose sight of perspective.

As a reference, the USMC standard issue M27 weighs 7.9lbs and 9.28lbs with its silencer. It weighs 11.2lbs with the standard issue 1-8 VCOG on top too.

I don’t hear too many people claiming the USMC is going to ditch the M27 because it’s too heavy.

 

[Glockster30]

You should be able to shoot it in an AR10. The XM7/MCX Spear bolt isn’t really special. The weak point in the system for handling that pressure is the case head. Primers blowing out, etc. The steel head solves that problem.

An AR10 might need a high pressure bolt with a smaller firing pin hole, like the JP offering.

From what I have read, the .277 Fury uses an entirely different bolt-locking lug with almost twice the surface area of a standard .308 bolt, which would require a redesign of the upper and the recoil system.

From the Forgotten Weapans video, Ian pointed out huge new locking lugs on the bolt of the SIG rifle, comparing it to a standard AR style bolt. The lugs surface area for the 6.8x51 round was at least twice as large - so that is really a re-engineering of an entirely new upper and related bolt carrier group in an AR-10 type rifle. Change the bolt design = change in the upper and the entire recoil system

Can an AR-10 Rifle be Built to handle the 6.8x51 at...

www.m14forum.com

 

[PappyM3]

From what I have read, the .277 Fury uses an entirely different bolt-locking lug with almost twice the surface area of a standard .308 bolt, which would require a redesign of the upper and the recoil system.

Can an AR-10 Rifle be Built to handle the 6.8x51 at...

www.m14forum.com

Thanks for the correction. Someone could make a new bolt with bigger lugs to match a different barrel extension, all fitting in an AR10. But I doubt that would happen.

 

[Dennis in MA]

You might not be able to because it's a weird hybrid cartridge that will not be able to be used in an AR10-type rifle. It has a stainless steel metal base, an aluminum locking washer, and a brass case. It also has a whopping SAAMI MAP chamber pressure of 80,000 psi.

.277 Fury - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 868454

Seems like it's pretty cheap to manufacture.

 

[PappyM3]

Seems like it's pretty cheap to manufacture.

Sig’s charging $3.50 a round for civilian purchase. Well, of civilian purchase for that case topped with a normal bonded hunting bullet. We don’t get the hardened steel penetrator tipped version.

Compared to tungsten magnum Turkey loads, it’s a steal! And it’s 40 cents cheaper per found than 50 BMG. What a bargain.

Lake city is going to start (maybe already started?) making this 6.8x51. There’s a chance it’ll go down in price a little. Or… it’ll just take production away from 5.56 and just increase 5.56 prices.

 

[drgrant]

You’re at the wrong spot in a Dunning-Kruger plot.

Edit, to elaborate and help clear this up about why your feat seems unbelievable:

1. A 0.4 MOA capable AR is downright amazing. That is really hard, even with custom match rifles with Bartlein barrels, hand loads, and accurized in other ways. Doing it with what appears to be a factory Ruger piston operated carbine is crazy. I’d be really impressed if it shot 1.5 MOA groups. Unless your group is 2 or 3 rounds. Then what you got was just statistical luck on a windless day. 3 round groups aren’t too useful, because of statistics.

2. For perspective, the NRA 600 yard MR-1 target has a 6” X ring. The 10 ring for a perfect score is 12”. The record at the 600 yard line for the High Power Individual Rifle is 200-17. So they got all 20 shots within 12”, but “only” 17/20 shots within 6”. Nevermind sub-3”. This record wasn’t even made until 2021. First place at the Massachusetts State Championship last year got 195-7, or 7/20 within 6” and 5 shots outside of 12”.

3. The above record was done with a 20” .223 competition rifle with a very nice barrel and external ballistics (wind resistance) of its bullet better than your 6.8 SPC. If you’re off on your wind read by only 1 mph, you’ll get a 2” drift at 600 yards with a 6.8 110gr BTHP. If there’s just a mere 3 mph gust as you take your shot, then your bullet will drift 13”.

 

[PappyM3]

@Lxpony Do you have a large frame Spear or handled one? If so, how do you like it?

 

[steven grammont]

does that mean all that surplus 5.56 ammo is going to be available????

They sent that overseas already

 

[jct61765]

Seems like it's pretty cheap to manufacture.

They're doubling the size of the ammo plant and hiring 625 more people in Arkansas. I think that round is just for the military.

 

[Varmint]

Solid Remo Williams reference

I think he’s part Cherokee, not Korean, unless I missed the joke?

 

[PappyM3]

Finally watched this video.

The Sig guy he interviewed said that Sig worked with AMU and decided to drop the pressure to 70k. Not for lack of handling the pressure or barrel life, but for precision considerations.


View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=mmaLnMg6dSw

 

[paul73]

The M4 is NOT going away. The era is not ending. The XM7 and XM250 are only getting issued to combat arms troops. And even then, I suspect leaders, grenadiers RTOs, medics, etc will still continue to use M4s.

I’m “meh” on the XM7. I think it, along with its cartridge and XM157 optic will be great to outfit the rifleman position in a fire team, and maybe the team leader. But everyone else should retain the M4. The XM250 on the other hand is so amazing. Lighter than the M249, even with a silencer on it. And much, much better external ballistics. Ammo weighs more, but some units already use the 7.62 Mk48 instead of the 249 anyway. So that ammo weight will stay the same.

It escapes me what can possibly be the logic to setup leader and rifleman on a different type of ammo from the rest of the squad. It all boils down to how much ammunition a squad can carry and share.

 

[Picton]

It escapes me what can possibly be the logic to setup leader and rifleman on a different type of ammo from the rest of the squad.

Again,

It's not ideal. Far from, in fact.

But it's been done before, successfully. A WWII rifle platoon had like four different shoulder weapons in three different calibers, all with (obviously) different mags. Not counting sidearms and MGs.

Modern doctrine trains for commonality of ammo and mags, but that can change. That's why they field in one battalion or one brigade: to iron out all those flaws, and identify unforeseen ones.

This isn't a "done deal" yet. This concept is still in beta release. I'm sure your concern is shared by many in .mil.

 

[paul73]

Again,


This isn't a "done deal" yet. This concept is still in beta release. I'm sure your concern is shared by many in .mil.

All this is only games until real conflict begins. Then it will all go back to good old .308 as it is where optimal balance is between accuracy and penetration.
I like .223 but it is still mostly a toy compared to both 6.5cm and black tip .308. Do not have any more of the latter no more, though, kinda stupidly wasted them all.

 

[PappyM3]

It escapes me what can possibly be the logic to setup leader and rifleman on a different type of ammo from the rest of the squad. It all boils down to how much ammunition a squad can carry and share.

That is not all it boils down to. Having organic assets with increased capabilities are incredibly important.

 

[paul73]

That is not all it boils down to. Having organic assets with increased capabilities are incredibly important.

Only if they can carry enough of those capabilities.

 

[Picton]

Only if they can carry enough of those capabilities.

Doctrinally, leaders aren't usually firing all that much. So the diminished combat load, number-of-rounds-wise, is likely to be offset by those added capabilities.

The calculus isn't as simple as you're making it sound.

 

[PappyM3]

Only if they can carry enough of those capabilities.

And they can easily carry two calibers. In fact, they already do.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

What's the cost point per round again?.....

The M4 ain't going nowhere...

 

[PappyM3]

All this is only games until real conflict begins. Then it will all go back to good old .308 as it is where optimal balance is between accuracy and penetration.
I like .223 but it is still mostly a toy compared to both 6.5cm and black tip .308. Do not have any more of the latter no more, though, kinda stupidly wasted them all.

Can I ask what you base this on?

We’re not talking about a ragtag militia in the mountains. We’re talking about a well organized modern military with some of the best logistics in the world.

 

[paul73]

Can I ask what you base this on?

We’re not talking about a ragtag militia in the mountains. We’re talking about a well organized modern military with some of the best logistics in the world.

Do not sneer at ragtag militants as they end up using the most efficient available solutions.
And best logistics only work at very limited and concentrated operations. As soon as it gets decently global involving not hundreds or thousands of troops but millions - there is no more logistics to talk of.

Current Ukraine campaign may get to millions eventually but even now logistics are already no more to talk of.

USA never had a real land war to deal with and, hopefully, will never have.

 

[PappyM3]

Do not sneer at ragtag militants as they end up using the most efficient available solutions.

And they usually have much higher casualty rates because they don’t have weapon overmatch.

And best logistics only work at very limited and concentrated operations. As soon as it gets decently global involving not hundreds or thousands of troops but millions - there is no more logistics to talk of.

False

USA never had a real land war to deal with and, hopefully, will never have.

Yes we have.

 

[Dench]

All this is only games until real conflict begins. Then it will all go back to good old .308 as it is where optimal balance is between accuracy and penetration.
I like .223 but it is still mostly a toy compared to both 6.5cm and black tip .308. Do not have any more of the latter no more, though, kinda stupidly wasted them all.

The military isn't really using 308 a lot outside of machine guns and the shit that's looking to replace the 308 looks pretty spicy itself.

308 is too large to carry around as a rifle. Everyone's tried it, basically no one's still doing it.

 

[Picton]

The military isn't really using 308 a lot outside of machine guns and the shit that's looking to replace the 308 looks pretty spicy itself.

308 is too large to carry around as a rifle. Everyone's tried it, basically no one's still doing it.

The big military problem with .308 is its uncontrollability in full auto in a world where armies want riflemen to have FA capability. Neither the G3 nor the FAL nor the M14 did all that well in FA, leading countries like Britain and its Commonwealth buddies to redesign the rifle to semi only. Israel responded by plonking a heavy barrel on there. Those are stopgaps, and they limit performance.

Too bad. I agree with @paul73 that it comes close to an optimal round under most circumstances. It wasn't that .308 was a bad round, really; it's that .223 did what the militaries wanted it to do, better and cheaper.

 

[weekendracer]

Than 7.62, yes. Not 20% though. 100 round pouch of linked 6.8x51 is 6.77lbs. 7.62x51 is just shy of 7lbs. Multiply that out to 400 rounds and you’re looking at 27lbs vs 28lbs.

400 rounds is still really heavy, whether it’s 6.8 or 7.62.

400 rounds of 556 gets heavy if you carry it far enough.

 

[PappyM3]

400 rounds of 556 gets heavy if you carry it far enough.

That’s the truth, but 600 rounds is the standard loadout for the 249 SAW. 400 rounds is standard for the Mk48 (7.62x51 version of the SAW).

M240 machine gunners, assistant gunners, and mortarmen have it much worse. Nevermind the poor saps doing mine clearing or tactical SIGINT.

 

[PappyM3]

Too bad. I agree with @paul73 that it comes close to an optimal round under most circumstances. It wasn't that .308 was a bad round, really; it's that .223 did what the militaries wanted it to do, better and cheaper.

I wouldn’t say 308 is optimal in just about anything. But if I were relegated to one rifle and one rifle alone for both general security and hunting in North America, it would probably be a 308

 

[dhuze]

You’re at the wrong spot in a Dunning-Kruger plot.

Edit, to elaborate and help clear this up about why your feat seems unbelievable:

1. A 0.4 MOA capable AR is downright amazing. That is really hard, even with custom match rifles with Bartlein barrels, hand loads, and accurized in other ways. Doing it with what appears to be a factory Ruger piston operated carbine is crazy. I’d be really impressed if it shot 1.5 MOA groups. Unless your group is 2 or 3 rounds. Then what you got was just statistical luck on a windless day. 3 round groups aren’t too useful, because of statistics.

2. For perspective, the NRA 600 yard MR-1 target has a 6” X ring. The 10 ring for a perfect score is 12”. The record at the 600 yard line for the High Power Individual Rifle is 200-17. So they got all 20 shots within 12”, but “only” 17/20 shots within 6”. Nevermind sub-3”. This record wasn’t even made until 2021. First place at the Massachusetts State Championship last year got 195-7, or 7/20 within 6” and 5 shots outside of 12”.

3. The above record was done with a 20” .223 competition rifle with a very nice barrel and external ballistics (wind resistance) of its bullet better than your 6.8 SPC. If you’re off on your wind read by only 1 mph, you’ll get a 2” drift at 600 yards with a 6.8 110gr BTHP. If there’s just a mere 3 mph gust as you take your shot, then your bullet will drift 13”.

Yeah, but that's open sights. He has a scope.

Oh and apparently the world record.