yet ANOTHER guns on school grounds question...

[GSG]

This is a hypothetical question of course. Let's say you carry daily, and pick one of your kids up from school, where you actually stand across the street from the school. What would you do on that day when the principal, or teacher approaches you, and tells you that your kid is inside, either sick, or in trouble and you have to come in and get them?

I'd do what many others have suggested and make an excuse to go back to the car and lawfully secure it. I'd take this a step further and suggest that you rehearse some excuses beforehand so you don't blush and stammer and fumble your way to the car, but make sure they make sense.

"I left the car running, let me go shut it off before I head inside." (Something like this would work in the winter, but probably not in the summer unless it's a sweltering hot day, or unless you left the AC on).

"I left my dog in the car and it's unlocked, let me go lock the doors/lower the windows." (Yes, some people take their dogs everywhere).

"I left my GPS stuck to the windshield and don't want it to get stolen, you go in and I'll catch up to you once I put it out of sight."

Just a few ideas, YMMV, but I would not tell them that I was armed unless the teacher telling me was a close personal friend who already knew that I carried.

Also, while I'm thinking here, a female could probably get away with more than a guy WRT excuses, saying they had to get their purse out of the car, or mentioning tampons or something, since many guys shut their ears off once menstruation gets mentioned.

I would avoid any discussion of a firearm with school personnel. When I was teaching, there were some moonbat teachers who didn't even like to see the school resource officer carrying his sidearm.

That reminds me...when I was in the 5th grade, our DARE instructor was an MSP trooper. I remember him locking up his whole duty belt in his cruiser before coming into class since some of the staff weren't comfortable with guns in the school. I was 11 at the time and I commented that it didn't make sense, since he was a cop on duty who might need his stuff. He hastily changed the subject.

Many schools have metal detectors at the door. Something that all ccw'ers need to take into serious consideration..

Yep. Seriosuly consider that both you and the unarmed guard working the metal detector might get shot and killed by a kid with emotional problems like happened in the Red Lake school shooting.

The disadvantage that I see is how you re-arm yourself... depending on the age and "talkativeness" of your child, you may not want to immediately rearm as soon as you get back into the car, but wait until you get home ("Honey, go get the mail while I get out of the car...")...

Great point.

Are you sure???

I hear an awful lot of folks referring to their 'truck gun'!

A lot of people post on NES from Free States where keeping a gun in the car is legal.

 

[GSG]

It is generally accepted that M.G.L. c.140 s.131C controls transportation AND storage in a vehicle.

By some, yes. But just to be clear what we're talking about, I'm going to quote both case law and the MGL's here.

MGl 140-131C says:

Chapter 140: Section 131C. Carrying of firearms in a vehicle


Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) any officer, agent or employee of the commonwealth or any state or the United States; (ii) any member of the military or other service of any state or of the United States; (iii) any duly authorized law enforcement officer, agent or employee of any municipality of the commonwealth; provided, however, that any such person described in clauses (i) to (iii), inclusive, is authorized by a competent authority to carry or possess the weapon so carried or possessed and is acting within the scope of his duties.

(e) A conviction of a violation of this section shall be reported forthwith by the court or magistrate to the licensing authority who shall immediately revoke the card or license of the person so convicted. No new such card or license may be issued to any such person until one year after the date of revocation.

MGL 140-131L says:

Chapter 140: Section 131L. Weapons stored or kept by owner; inoperable by any person other than owner or lawfully authorized user; punishment


Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

(b) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a firearm, rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon, by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000 or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and in the case of a large capacity weapon or machine gun, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(c) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon and such weapon was stored or kept in a place where a person under the age of 18 who does not possess a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B may have access without committing an unforeseeable trespass, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(d) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a rifle or shotgun that is a large capacity weapon, firearm or machine gun was stored or kept in a place where a person under the age of 18 may have access, without committing an unforeseeable trespass, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than two and one-half years, nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(e) A violation of the provisions of this section shall be evidence of wanton or reckless conduct in any criminal or civil proceeding if a person under the age of 18 who was not a trespasser or was a foreseeable trespasser acquired access to a weapon, unless such person possessed a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B and was permitted by law to possess such weapon, and such access results in the personal injury to or the death of any person.

(f) This section shall not apply to the storage or keeping of any firearm, rifle or shotgun with matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system manufactured in or prior to the year 1899, or to any replica of any such firearm, rifle or shotgun if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

But in case law is where all of this gets tricky. I did some digging and found two cases that pertain to MGL 140-131C.

Commonwealth v. Alverado (1995) says in part:

The defendant waived his right to a jury trial and was tried before a District Court judge on a complaint charging him with unlawfully carrying a firearm in a motor vehicle, G. L. c. 140, Section 131C, knowingly possessing or having under his control a firearm in a vehicle without a license, G. L. c. 269, Section 10(a), and possessing a firearm without a firearm identification card G. L. c. 269, Section 10(h). He was found guilty and has appealed.

The issue with this case is that the defendant couldn't/shouldn't have been charged with MGL 140-131C, because that section of law only applies to people who have a Massachusetts Class A or B LTC.

The second case is a recent one.

Commonwealth v. Cotto (2007) says in part:

The defendant was charged with carrying a firearm without a license, G. L. c. 269, § 10(a), possession of a class D substance (marijuana), G. L. c. 94C, § 34, and leaving a firearm in a vehicle, G. L. c. 140, § 131C.

Same issue as above. The guy had no LTC, so he couldn't be charged with it. But later on in the same case it explains that:

[Note 4] The Commonwealth filed a nolle prosequi prior to trial as to the charge of leaving a firearm in a vehicle.

I also think it's worth mentioning that in both of the above cases, the defendant's were in the vehicle with the gun, they didn't leave it there.

However, M1911 mentioned that words in the MGL's don't always mean what one would think they mean. However, in case law the Massachusetts courts have held repeatedly that in relation to firearms, posession means posession, and carry means carry.

Commonwealth v. Landry (1978) says in part:

The defendant concedes that he did not have a license to carry a firearm issued pursuant to G. L. c. 140, Section 131, or a temporary license issued to "a non-resident," pursuant to G. L. c. 140, Section 131F. He therefore does not come within either of the exceptions provided in G. L. c. 269, Section 10 (a)(1) and (2). He argues, however, that his firearm identification card brings him within the exception provided in G. L. c. 269, Section 10 (a) (3), as appearing in St. 1975, c. 113, Section 2, since it puts him in "compl[iance] with the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine C and one hundred and thirty-one G of chapter one hundred and forty" (emphasis supplied). He concedes that he is not within the provisions of G. L. c. 140, Section 131G, as appearing in St. 1956, c. 86, which allows a nonresident under certain conditions to "carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition . . . or for the purpose of hunting." But he argues that "and" in G. L. c. 269, Section 10 (a) (3), should be read as "or" so that compliance with G. L. c. 140, Section 129C or Section 131G, is sufficient to permit him to carry a firearm. But a firearm identification card obtained in compliance with G. L. c. 140, Section 129C, as appearing in St. 1973, c. 892, Section 3, authorizes the holder to "own or possess" a firearm (see Commonwealth v. Bond, 375 Mass. 201 , 210 [1978]); it does not authorize him to

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"carr[y] on his person or under his control in a vehicle, a firearm." G. L. c. 269, Section 10(a). General Laws c. 140, Section 129C (sixth par.), though perhaps somewhat inartistically drawn, indicates the same intent.

Commonwealth v. Wood (1986) says in part:

To adopt the defendant's interpretation of the statute would effectively disregard the distinction between the exemptions for the unlawful "possession" of a firearm and the exemptions for the unlawful "carrying" of a firearm. See Commonwealth v. Landry, 6 Mass. App. Ct. 404 , 405-406 (1978).

There's many other Mass. cases that apply this same distinction to firearms, but there's too many to quote them all.

Now apply the courts interpretation of "carrying" firearms to MGL 140-131C, which says in part:

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

It would appear that carrying in a vehicle is different than storage in a vehicle in Massachusetts.

But with that said, as always in Mass., where the law isn't clear, you can expect to be prosecuted and/or have your LTC revoked as a result of doing something that your local chief finds "unsuitable," so there is a difference between what is legal to do under the MGL's and what is practical to do if you don't want to spend years in court and thousands of dollars explaining your actions.

Scrivener, Cross-X and Ron Glidden have taken this position, and I would be inclined to follow their advice. YMMV.

I've corrected Scrivener on legal topics a couple of time on here before, Cross-X doesn't give much specific advice on here (but for what it's worth, he disagrees with me on this topic IIRC), and Ron Glidden also says in his book that in order for a pre 10-21-1998 Glock to be Mass. compliant it must have been documented as in Mass. before the law changed. While I value the input of all three, I will disagree with them on topics from time to time.

 

[whatluck]

Jenlyn

There is no need to explain yourself. "Excuse me, I'll be right back." You're an adult, and theres no reason for you to give any information what so ever. Your taxes pay the principal's salary. He works for you. I would also suggest that exiting the vehicle anywhere near school grounds means locked firearm.

 

[fencer]

Jenlyn

There is no need to explain yourself. "Excuse me, I'll be right back." You're an adult, and theres no reason for you to give any information what so ever. Your taxes pay the principal's salary. He works for you. I would also suggest that exiting the vehicle anywhere near school grounds means locked firearm.

Best advice yet. Tell the Pricincipal that you will be right there and properly secure your firearm. No explanations are necessary.

 

[GSG]

But in case law is where all of this gets tricky. I did some digging and found two cases that pertain to MGL 140-131C.

Commonwealth v. Alverado (1995) says in part:



The issue with this case is that the defendant couldn't/shouldn't have been charged with MGL 140-131C, because that section of law only applies to people who have a Massachusetts Class A or B LTC.

The second case is a recent one.

Commonwealth v. Cotto (2007) says in part:



Same issue as above. The guy had no LTC, so he couldn't be charged with it. But later on in the same case it explains that:



I also think it's worth mentioning that in both of the above cases, the defendant's were in the vehicle with the gun, they didn't leave it there.

FWIW, it looks like someone else got charged for this incorrectly as well.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...nn-man-arrested-for-firing-gun-into-night-air