Yes, another MA CCW question...

[KodiakFan24]

is a school admin building - if not part of an actual school - a prohibited place to carry?

is said school admin building considered part of the police station if they occupy the same building, but with different entrances?

or is it basically up to the officer, if there was ever an issue, to make the determination?

 

[jasons]

is a school admin building - if not part of an actual school - a prohibited place to carry?

is said school admin building considered part of the police station if they occupy the same building, but with different entrances?

or is it basically up to the officer, if there was ever an issue, to make the determination?

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

I guess the question is "what is considered school grounds?" I've never seen a clear answer to that question backed up by citation. I would ~think~ that any property owned or leased by a school is certainly "school grounds." Beyond that, who knows?


I love this part:

For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Sounds like:

 

[jadek]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10


I guess the question is "what is considered school grounds?" I've never seen a clear answer to that question backed up by citation. I would ~think~ that any property owned or leased by a school is certainly "school grounds." Beyond that, who knows?


I love this part:


Sounds like:

Jasons, check out MGL 22C S63. It discusses jurisdiction for university and college police. I know it may not seem relevant, but it defines their jurisdiction as any property used, owned, leased or OTHERWISE OCCUPIED. It wouldn't surprise me if a judge used that in defining property relative to 269 10j. Crazier things have happened.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

Is today the day people start outing themselves again?!

 

[jasons]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

OK, since you're an expert:

You have a building owned by a real estate company. They lease floor 3 to College X, which is used by their billing department. They lease floor 5 to a private company that is in no way, shape, or form, a school.

Is the whole building a "school?" What about common areas like the lobby? If you work at the company on floor 5, are you a felon when you take the elevator past floor 3?

Please provide citations in your response.

 

[Len-2A Training]

OK, since you're an expert:

You have a building owned by a real estate company. They lease floor 3 to College X, which is used by their billing department. They lease floor 5 to a private company that is in no way, shape, or form, a school.

Is the whole building a "school?" What about common areas like the lobby? If you work at the company on floor 5, are you a felon when you take the elevator past floor 3?

Please provide citations in your response.

It's a good question as for a number of years my Wife worked in just such a situation . . . for the largest Boston medical complex in a building where a college was located on another floor. Both businesses were leased from the building owner (building NOT owned by any school/college). There are some cops (on every dept) who would try to make the case that the entire property from top to bottom is a "school" for 269-10 purposes . . . and a crap-shoot as to how a MA activist judge would rule. Most people caught up in this type of situation would take a plea-bargain.

 

[hillson09]

Just a random guess but I think he is talking about methuen

 

[Deleted member 12999]

OK, since you're an expert:

You have a building owned by a real estate company. They lease floor 3 to College X, which is used by their billing department. They lease floor 5 to a private company that is in no way, shape, or form, a school.

Is the whole building a "school?" What about common areas like the lobby? If you work at the company on floor 5, are you a felon when you take the elevator past floor 3?

Please provide citations in your response.

I'm guessing with the 1st grader comment, the reply will be short on facts. Your question is a hot mess in Massachusetts. Here's some new case law to make it even muddier

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2469786375446656600&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

The other compounding issue is who responded to call? City or town cop due to common area? Or a campus PO? I don't have a firm answer, and the peoples republic probably doesn't either.

 

[jasons]

Jasons, check out MGL 22C S63.

That looks like the law that allows for the appointment of special officers. Typo or am I missing something?

 

[Deleted member 12999]

That looks like the law that allows for the appointment of special officers. Typo or am I missing something?

It defines their jurisdiction, all I meant is that I wouldn't be surprised if a judge used it to define boundaries for charging for 269 10j, but I am FAR from an expert

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jasons]

It defines their jurisdiction, all I meant is that I wouldn't be surprised if a judge used it to define boundaries for charging for 269 10j, but I am FAR from an expert

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

Oh, I see now. I don't know.

 

[Len-2A Training]

It defines their jurisdiction, all I meant is that I wouldn't be surprised if a judge used it to define boundaries for charging for 269 10j, but I am FAR from an expert

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

Then we are in deep shit!

When I worked at a college PD, the college PD responded to a call about a kid who fell/jumped from a 2nd or 3rd floor porch to the ground of a house NOT on college property and not owned by the college. I think he was probably a student at the college, but the college PD could get there before the municipal PD in this case. It was considered within their "jurisdiction" but maybe more due to their special police powers than anything else.

 

[jibbr71]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

Because a first grader was the problem in Newtown, Columbine, Va Tech, Jonesboro,......


Smarten up.


Sent from my phone....which isn't really a phone anymore, it's a computer on my pocket

 

[M1911]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

If only it were that easy.

Remember when a certain president said "It depends upon what the meaning of 'is' is." While many of us guffawed, in the legal world his statement makes a certain amount of sense. The interpretation of the meaning of words is the crux of law, and the interpretation as used by the courts is often very different from the common use.

For example, consider the word "ammunition." Would you call an empty cartridge case ammunition? How about pepper spray? No, I wouldn't either, but the MA courts do, as a result of MGL Chapter 140 Section 121.

Unfortunately, the word "school" is not defined in Mass General Law. As an example, MIT and Harvard own a lot of real estate in Cambridge. On some of this real estate, they have developed (or allowed real estate companies to develop) office buildings. These office buildings are not occupied by the university, but by third party companies that pay rent to the real estate companies. Are these buildings schools or not? About 10 years back, I had an attorney research this issue for me. He could not find any case law. So, the best he could come up with is "probably not", but whether or not you got prosecuted for it would depend upon which ADA got your case. If the university has administrative offices on one floor of one of these buildings, does that change the interpretation? No one knows and it would be a bitch to be the test case.

 

[josh2600]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

Hey! Part of the problem! Nice to meet you!

 

[Sparky480]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

Gentlemen my opinion on this issue is if you choose to carry you carry all the time when you can, you will never know when the time comes if it "ever comes" when you're put into a situation where your life is on the line. Let's say for instance you go to school to pick up your son or daughter and yes guess what she or he is in first grade. Before entering the facility you obviously have to disarm yourself locking your firearm in your vehicle. You proceed to enter the building to go to the office to pick up your child.. While you're in school waiting for your child, Evil strikes again a deranged man or woman enters the building and proceeds to kill teachers, children so sad but in this day and age things happen The casualties are rising every minute.. How would you feel if you knew you could of saved some of these teachers or children if you only had your firearm to stop the killing spree.. Who knows maybe you wouldn't even have to fire a shot you could of stop the situation by presenting your gun. As parents grief over the loss of their child and adults grief over the loss of their loved one... Maybe you if you only had your firearm and was able to do something it would've been less people grieving. You could've saved someone's Loved one from this evil individual... The sad part is we allow laws and regulations placed on ourselves it does nothing, well I shouldn't say nothing it does give a advantage to the evil individual-criminal.

 

[Len-2A Training]

A real question (not having kids, I have no idea if we've devolved this badly) . . .

To pick up your kid at school every day, do you have to meet your kid inside the school office, show an ID, have a background check done, piss in a cup and leave a DNA sample?

Or (like when I was a kid) do they allow these poor children to exit the building under their own power and meet the parents outside the school (parked alongside the sidewalk) without verifying that the parent is legally the parent and allowed to pick up the kid?

 

[jasons]

A real question (not having kids, I have no idea if we've devolved this badly) . . .

To pick up your kid at school every day, do you have to meet your kid inside the school office, show an ID, have a background check done, piss in a cup and leave a DNA sample?

Or (like when I was a kid) do they allow these poor children to exit the building under their own power and meet the parents outside the school (parked alongside the sidewalk) without verifying that the parent is legally the parent and allowed to pick up the kid?

My kids go to a small school so the parents are well known. I press the buzzer on the front door, an administrator see who I am through the window and lets me in, they call my kid, and we go.

Any parents who volunteer at the school must get a CORI check. No pee cup or DNA sample is required.

 

[Lignum Vitea]

It seems according to some that I have a very big "problem".

 

[Len-2A Training]

My kids go to a small school so the parents are well known. I press the buzzer on the front door, an administrator see who I am through the window and lets me in, they call my kid, and we go.

Any parents who volunteer at the school must get a CORI check. No pee cup or DNA sample is required.

YET! Just a matter of time.

I guess I was an "at risk child" growing up. I even walked as much as 1/2 mile to the bus stop or 1 mile (maybe a bit less) to school in the 4th thru 12th grade and no parents walked us to the bus stop. Due to after school activities I even walked home (probably close to 2 miles) and survived w/o getting kidnapped.

 

[KodiakFan24]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

i don't "need to carry that much." I carry in the house, out doing errands, out for dinner, etc. I carry anytime I'm with my family. But one of my errands was dropping off a check at the admin building. I was just curious as to what the consensus was for this scenario. Should I have gone home and secured my pistol then gone out to drop the check off (which is what I did) or was there perhaps a clause in the MGL that defined "school" a bit more clearly. apparently there is not. but flamers gonna flame, I guess.

It's a good question as for a number of years my Wife worked in just such a situation . . . for the largest Boston medical complex in a building where a college was located on another floor. Both businesses were leased from the building owner (building NOT owned by any school/college). There are some cops (on every dept) who would try to make the case that the entire property from top to bottom is a "school" for 269-10 purposes . . . and a crap-shoot as to how a MA activist judge would rule. Most people caught up in this type of situation would take a plea-bargain.

that was my initial thought, that it was all covered under the "school" umbrella, but since there weren't any kids there and no teaching is actually done there, it was not considered school grounds. i dunno...

Gentlemen my opinion on this issue is if you choose to carry you carry all the time when you can, you will never know when the time comes if it "ever comes" when you're put into a situation where your life is on the line. Let's say for instance you go to school to pick up your son or daughter and yes guess what she or he is in first grade. Before entering the facility you obviously have to disarm yourself locking your firearm in your vehicle. You proceed to enter the building to go to the office to pick up your child.. While you're in school waiting for your child, Evil strikes again a deranged man or woman enters the building and proceeds to kill teachers, children so sad but in this day and age things happen The casualties are rising every minute.. How would you feel if you knew you could of saved some of these teachers or children if you only had your firearm to stop the killing spree.. Who knows maybe you wouldn't even have to fire a shot you could of stop the situation by presenting your gun. As parents grief over the loss of their child and adults grief over the loss of their loved one... Maybe you if you only had your firearm and was able to do something it would've been less people grieving. You could've saved someone's Loved one from this evil individual... The sad part is we allow laws and regulations placed on ourselves it does nothing, well I shouldn't say nothing it does give a advantage to the evil individual-criminal.

Are there signs proclaiming it a "gun free zone?" If so, then there shouldn't be anything to worry about.

 

[Mass-diver]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

Agreed, I don't carry at a gun at all, just a rape whistle. In fact, why do people even own guns, isn't that what the police are for?

 

[PaulD]

What part of the word SCHOOL don't you understand?? If it is SCHOOL just don't carry. How hard is that to figure out? If you need to carry that much you have a problem. I'm sure a first grader is just waiting to mug you.

A school administration building has students in it taking classes? If not, it seems to flunk a basic test for being a school.

 

[MisterHappy]

Sparky's post posits an extremely unlikely scenario (as school shootings are very rare).

A more likely possibility is that you will print, or flash accidentally, and the S will HTF.

If you're big enough to carry, you're big enough to make your own choices, but by the percentages.....

As for showing ID to pick up the kids....no. But, then, the schools were always happy to give them to me!

 

[ProGun]

Agreed, I don't carry at a gun at all, just a rape whistle. In fact, why do people even own guns, isn't that what the police are for?

And if the whistle doesn't do the trick you can always pee your pants or maybe barf. After all no one would EVER need a gun in a GUN FREE ZONE, right?!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

YET! Just a matter of time.

I guess I was an "at risk child" growing up. I even walked as much as 1/2 mile to the bus stop or 1 mile (maybe a bit less) to school in the 4th thru 12th grade and no parents walked us to the bus stop. Due to after school activities I even walked home (probably close to 2 miles) and survived w/o getting kidnapped.

Uphill both ways I assume.

 

[xcom]

Lens brings up a point, and sorry to resurrect an old thread here, with respect to sidewalks and school pick up. The MGLs say:

"MGL Chapter 269, Section 10(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means."

I assume, for the purposes of this statute, that the grounds must be owned by or identified as those of the school. It may be a little more clear is the instance of a private school, but my understanding would be that since the school does not own the sidewalk (especially in the case of a private school) or the roads that those are not the grounds of the school. In particular (in the case I am thinking of) the school: 1) does not maintain the side walk; 2) the town removes snow; 3) the school MAY put rock salt on the side walk from time to time; and 4) the sidewalk abuts the school property but does not run through any school property. Given these facts, my argument would be that a parent waiting in a car on the public road along the side walk or even on the sidewalk is not on school grounds. The caselaw on sidewalks indicates that it is town property and the town is responsible to maintain it absent some responsibility otherwise (e.g., snow removal) or if it is a private sidewalk so my thought it that it is not school grounds.

Another question would be municipal fields that abut the school and are used for gym and the like. Do those become de facto "school grounds" especially when the school is a public school? For example, if I look at a map I may see the Lord God King Obama Elementary School grounds hemmed in by the plebs property and then a large swath of property identified as the Joe Biden Memorial Field. What is the status of the field?

I know some more facts are needed but just wanted to hear some opinions.

 

[Len-2A Training]

xcom,

Having been involved directly in town gov't for the past 39 years, I offer the following info (relative to MA, unsure if other states are similar or not):

- There are "2 divisions" of local town property: School and Town.
- Legally those that control the town (mayor, town manager, selectmen, etc.) have NO control over school property or budgets (there is a court case that goes back to the late 1970s-early 1980s on this, I have no citation).
- The schools (managed by superintendent and school committee) own and operate all the school buildings and attached properties.
- The town owns and operates all other town property including all public roads and sidewalks. If you are parked on the street (or standing on the sidewalk next to the street) in front of a school you are on town property. If you are parked in the school parking lot, you are on school property.

There is a SE MA town with a school parking lot across the street from the high school, that is school property. Behind that auxiliary parking lot is a playground with ball fields. That is a totally separate town park. The football field and softball fields beside and behind the high school are part of the school.

All the above is not "opinion" but factual from numerous discussions with the town manager, town counsel and selectmen over the years. We had a rogue superintendent at one time and I was part of some discussions on perhaps cutting the school budget at Town Meeting and we were told that if we did that the school system could sue the town and were guaranteed to win so that the tax rate would increase even higher than merely passing whatever they asked for (because it would also include the legal fees for the court battle on both sides).

 

[xcom]

xcom,

Having been involved directly in town gov't for the past 39 years, I offer the following info (relative to MA, unsure if other states are similar or not):

- There are "2 divisions" of local town property: School and Town.
- Legally those that control the town (mayor, town manager, selectmen, etc.) have NO control over school property or budgets (there is a court case that goes back to the late 1970s-early 1980s on this, I have no citation).
- The schools (managed by superintendent and school committee) own and operate all the school buildings and attached properties.
- The town owns and operates all other town property including all public roads and sidewalks. If you are parked on the street (or standing on the sidewalk next to the street) in front of a school you are on town property. If you are parked in the school parking lot, you are on school property.

There is a SE MA town with a school parking lot across the street from the high school, that is school property. Behind that auxiliary parking lot is a playground with ball fields. That is a totally separate town park. The football field and softball fields beside and behind the high school are part of the school.

All the above is not "opinion" but factual from numerous discussions with the town manager, town counsel and selectmen over the years. We had a rogue superintendent at one time and I was part of some discussions on perhaps cutting the school budget at Town Meeting and we were told that if we did that the school system could sue the town and were guaranteed to win so that the tax rate would increase even higher than merely passing whatever they asked for (because it would also include the legal fees for the court battle on both sides).

That's what I thought. Facinating, however, I never knew the schools have so much power over the town. It's no wonder why are virtual dictators.