WTF? is this ammo for the Garand Match?

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

OK, So I attended a recent CMP Garand Rifle Clinic and Match (55 rds. @ 200 yds), at an un-named Club , with Ammo provided as part of clinic and match cost. Everything was looking good, after-all I have fired in some of these before. The Match Director passed out ammo, and it was pre-packaged in mixed boxes and in pre-loaded clips. I had assumed it was for the benefit of processing and setting up the "New" shooters. And for that , I'm sure they appreciated the effort.
BUT HERE'S THE RUB
I got into my position, and began prep time, only to find that the 30-06 ammo (Issued) was from about 6 Different Lots. No BS here, I had Ammo from the 1950's and 1960's and the 1970's. I had "HXP" Greek from various Years (60's and 70's), and LC , and even WRA from the 1950's. Then I noticed some of the ammo boxes - Example: LC ammo - some had original Arsenal boxes and other boxes were "Talon" Re-packaged boxes. Clearly this was a "Soup-Sandwich" of ISSUED AMMO.
So, I asked other shooters and several of them had the same problem, and most the others probably didn't know the difference. So, I ask the Forum...If the Match is "AS-ISSUED RIFLES, and the intent of the rules is to have a level playing field. All Ammo should be from the same LOT...RIGHT! or at least the SAME Manufacturer. How is the shooter to get accurate sighters or shots for record? ..When ISSUED (Example) 5 rds. HXP 72, and 3 rds. of LC-69, and 7 rds. of WRA-56, and 6 rds. of HXP 62 ?? WTF was with this?
All previous Garand Matches that I have attended ...issued the same ammo from the same Lot / Spam can / or 30 cal Ammo can. Was this the Club Sponsor, cleaning up the old odd numbered rds., or tarnished rds., or odds and ends ? Isn't this against the intent of the CMP Match? Give me some opinion on this... I still don't get it !!

 

[MACGYVR]

Looks like this is what the club got from the CMP:

4C3006U214-240P (armor piercing), mixed manufacturers (TW, LC, Denver and other)..30-06 AP (armor piercing) in 5 rd steel stripper clips, in bandoleers, packed 240 rds per .50 cal USGI ammo can.

Unless it was in Mass because this lot being AP ammo the CMP will not ship it here.

So it is quite possible that they got M2 Ball ammo, non-AP (not currently for sale on the CMP site) that was mixed by the CMP and packed.

Your scenario is also possible. After each CMP shoot they just took all the loose rounds and threw them in a coffee can and before the next shoot they load them into clips giving you a random assortmemt.

There is nothing in the rules that prevents them from doing this. Only caveat is that if the sponsor of the match issues ammunition, you must use that ammo.

 

[USMA-82]

The CMP clinic is designed to teach newbies the basics of rifle shooting using the highpower rifle positions and course of fire. The emphasis is on technique, proper position, basic firearms operations and SAFETY. It is not meant to be a competitive match, even though some very experienced shooters choose to attend.

I think the main objective of most attendees (in addition to getting some low-cost instruction and range time) is to get that signed score card so they can buy a gun from the CMP. And the CMP does not care how well or poorly the shooter scored - they still qualify for the rifle.

If the event you attended was scheduled and advertised as a "CMP Match" however, I think you would be justified in noting the mismatch of ammo.

*

 

[FPrice]

OK, So I attended a recent CMP Garand Rifle Clinic and Match (55 rds. @ 200 yds), at an un-named Club , with Ammo provided as part of clinic and match cost.

(omitted for space)

Give me some opinion on this... I still don't get it !!

Did you bother to inquire of the club at the time of the match? You may or may not have a legitimate issue, but why air this out in public before going to the source?

 

[mac1911]

when I hear CMP I hear military surplus. Im not sure on this one but if you recieved M2 ball 30cal and so did everyone else you all have the same ammo.

Now consistancy from lot to lot and batch to batch is of some concern when shooting for score.

Heck theres a big difference in felt recoil to me from what the club was shooting(not HXP) and the HXP fodder I have

Even still when shooting the same lot from the same can(never really checked the head stamps) I always seem to get a flyer in the 60 round CMP "shoots" I have not yet shot a match

 

[CaptDan3]

Well you could always bring your own ammo.

Like they say " Ya buys your tickets, Ya take your chances"

Dan Long
Boston

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

Update: The ammo was regular M-2 ball ... not AP. No, I did not inquire with the people running the clinic and match...Thats a little hard to do when you discover the ammo issue on the firing line. After firing...whats the point? Yes, the event is geared for newb's, I understand that. Further, I am not "Airing this in public" , if you noticed...I did not mention the location, club or date. It just strikes me as Wrong, issuing 6 different lots of ammo, knowing they will be fired at Scoring Rings. If this were a "Fam Fire" or used to shoot tin cans in the gravel pit....I'd be OK. Keep the comments coming.


Remember.. the ammo was from the 1950's....1960's... and 1970's...

 

[FPrice]

Update: The ammo was regular M-2 ball ... not AP. No, I did not inquire with the people running the clinic and match...Thats a little hard to do when you discover the ammo issue on the firing line. After firing...whats the point? [/B]

What's the point? Simply because the people who ran the event would be the best ones to answer your question. Before, during, and after the event.

 

[mac1911]

I thought the cmp was to teach civi's the proper way to shoot a rifle in military fassion if the need to defend against invadeing forces we would have at least the basic skills to hit a torso sized target?

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

OK, What if some 1940's corrosive ammo was mixed in with the coffee can remnants of ammo issued? I wonder if any Re-loads were mixed in? Would that be right? Maybe some M-72 ammo was mixed in with the M-2?

The point is the ammo, really isn't it.

Anyone else get mixed ammo at a Garand Match?

 

[M1911]

It was a clinic. Sheesh. Relax.

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

Yup, Just a clinic...that is true. I just don't remember Gary Anderson covering the topic of "Mixed Ammo" in the GSM Master Instructor Class, that I attended at Camp Perry. And based on the CMP move eliminating Ammunition purchasing limits ( was 10 cans for indiv.), I can only assume its not a problem for a CMP sanctioned club / clinic/ match to get the same "lot" of ammo...at least from the same decade or manufacturer. Why have standards....If you're going to mix s**t up.

SHOOTER READY: OK, for sighters - 2 rds of HXP-72 and 3 rds of LC (Talon)
Prone Slow - 3 rds of WRA-56, 7 rds of HXP-62, 4 rds of HXP-72 and 6 of LC
Prone Rpd - 2 rds HXP-68, 4 rds HXP 64 and 2 rds LC (Talon)
Sit Rpd - ck. above
Offhand - yup, same as above

COME ' ON MAN

 

[jasons]

It does seem a little low rent to me, but for a clinic it's probably not a big deal. (I assume that the ammo was safe even if it was from different decades....) I imagine they were just trying to burn up whatever leftover ammo they had and figured "Hey, it's just a clinic. No big deal."

Speaking of Garands - anyone going to that "Battle of the Bulge" Garand match in Scarborough in December? Sounds like a lot of fun: http://www.scarfg.org/rifle/N-BOTB_match_Dec_12_2010.pdf

 

[bpm990d]

Why have standards....If you're going to mix s**t up.

It's probably just a goof up, but I have seen the same thing when it was a Leg match. That wasn't a goof up, that was cheating.

B

 

[M1911]

Yup, Just a clinic...that is true. I just don't remember Gary Anderson covering the topic of "Mixed Ammo" in the GSM Master Instructor Class, that I attended at Camp Perry.

And if you are honestly comparing a local clinic to that, then you are either delusional or have an axe to grind (or both).

Dude, take a deep breath, climb down off your soap box, grab a beer, and worry about something that's important.

 

[PatMcD]

I have shot in more than a few CMP Garand matches and in every single one there was mixed ammo. Guess what; it will all shoot a 10. The only thing most shooters will do is segregate out the HXP (Greek ammo which is hotter than most) and shoot that in it's own stage.

Everybody is shooting issued ammo. No advantage to anybody.

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

Pat, I too have shot in more than a few CMP Garand Matches. I disagree, never have I seen such a wide range of ammo issued. Did you read my Post? Really....1950's, 1960's and 1970's ammo? WRA, HXP, LC and LC (repackaged by Talon)...

Maybe some matches had HXP-67 and HXP-66 together....But 3 different decades...COME-ON.

As to axes to grind...NOPE...just an Ammo issue,,,you didn't hear me complain about anything else did you. I didn't mention location or Club...DID I?


BTW, Pat...No Disrespect...I looked up your CMP #. It looks like my CMP # pre-dates yours by about 30,000 people. Not measuring Di*ks...but I've been around a while too.

U.S. ARMY DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT...out

 

[beldavius]

BTW, Pat...No Disrespect...I looked up your CMP #. It looks like my CMP # pre-dates yours by about 30,000 people. Not measuring Di*ks...but I've been around a while too.

U.S. ARMY DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT...out

Seriously? I thought this was a decent discussion, and, while I was leaning towards the side of "it was only a clinic, I don't see the real big deal", I was interested to hear your points, but with this comment, you've lost any credibility in my eyes. Pat said nothing derogatory to you in his post, and the mere fact that you had to preface this comment with "no disrespect" and then finish it with "not measuring di*ks"...wow. Spoken like a true "master instructor".

so much for a good discussion.

 

[NavelOfficer]

Admittedly, I am not a Garand authority nor an ammo historian, but is it possible that surplus stock of 06 ammo is getting harder to come by? Perhaps many clubs have to comingle various arsenals' fodder to make the match happen...just my guess. I've only shot one Garand match with a friend's M1 and I came with my own ammo, not realizing that the club issued everyone similar ammo for the match.

 

[MACGYVR]

I don't think the troops in WWII had all the same ammo in their banodliers and pockets.

What you experienced in accuracy was what they experienced. Only difference is that your target wasn't shooting back and you got to go home.

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

Based on CMP actions and discussions. There is plenty of Greek "HXP" ammo available. I can only guess, the match sponsors gathered all there odds and ends and played it off on the "Guys" that don't know the difference. Poor play in my opinion. I comment on what I viewed, maybe some of the other shooters got FA-18 (as in 1918 and corrosive) ammo, or maybe some super deluxe re-loads. Either way, it is not proper to play off the dribs and drabs on the old "Clinic" guys.

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

As to "Pat". I agree He said nothing derogatory. I quote Pat ..."I have shot in more than a few CMP Garand matches and in every single one there was mixed ammo." I only mention him to refute his findings. I have never found such a variance in ammo issue. I make reference to CMP #'s, only to give illustration and veracity, to my experience and my recent finding / post. An earlier issued CMP # gives witness to experience. A measure of having been around or in the game longer. I don't mean to be derogatory, I enjoy many Posts by Pat and others. I just disagree with his findings....

M.I. out (come on, I had to throw that out..LOL)

 

[bpm990d]

Rifle matches are not combat simulations. They have about as much to do with combat as a well balanced breakfast does.

B

 

[MACGYVR]

Rifle matches are not combat simulations. They have about as much to do with combat as a well balanced breakfast does.

B

And your statement has nothing to do with what I said.

I said what HE EXPERIENCED IN ACCURACY was what troops had to deal with in WWII.
Never suggested it was a combat simulation.

Reading comprehension is a big FAIL on this board.[sad2]

 

[jasons]

I said what HE EXPERIENCED IN ACCURACY was what troops had to deal with in WWII.

Sure, WWII combat troops got issued ammo from three different decades at once.... Right. (Not that it has a thing to do with a match anyway.)

I know DPS and he's a good guy. I've shot with him and he's a damn good shot. (Good enough to see the difference between WRA from 1950 and HXP from 1970 on his target.) He was venting a bit, not trying to turn this into the Spanish Inquisition.... Give it a rest.

 

[duaneb1953]

I agree with Jasons, "give it a rest". But lets cut to the chase, maybe the guys running the clinic had a bunch of their own junk hanging around and exchanged it for the nice LC stuff for the clinic? It's happened before. My .02

 

[FPrice]

I agree with Jasons, "give it a rest". But lets cut to the chase, maybe the guys running the clinic had a bunch of their own junk hanging around and exchanged it for the nice LC stuff for the clinic? It's happened before. My .02

Now we are intimating that the guys running the clinic might be messing with the ammo? Trying to cheat the participants out of the best performance they could possibly achieve?

[SARCASM]Man, this thread just keeps getting better and better. [/SARCASM]

 

[Jose]

One of the several reasons why I don't bother with Garand matches.

I like the bar set quite a bit higher in terms of equipment, preparation, and performance.

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

Duane, yes I agree.....Yes, I think they issued the "crap" and kept the "Nice" Ammo that was meant for the clinic. I think they took advantage of the prospective Newb's, and took it for granted that no-one would notice.

To Answer the question some are wondering - How did I shoot? And Do I have an axe to grind because of my Score? .... I shot a bad score. I own the score and I take responsibility for it. I think the Ammo was a reason for the bad score, but probably not the only reason. I do not have an axe to grind, thats why I left the location , date and club out of the discussion.

This Ammo Issue, as I experienced it... I feel was wrong. I accept maybe issue of HXP-67 and 68 for 55 rds. or maybe LC 68 and 69 for the 55 rds. I accept ammo issued from the same year but different LOT Numbers ( Example : Lot-1137-HXP-69 and Lot 1139-HXP-69).

But we're talking about 1950's, 1960's and 1970's ammo from how many different manufacturers?

 

[PatMcD]

Whatever.

My point that got lost, although is clearly there in my last post, is this: everybody was issued the same ammo!
The idea behind all CMP-sanctioned events (Garand, EIC, President's 100, etc.) is the level playing field.
Nobody has a rifle or ammo advantage. Your score is determined by you, not your equipment.

I got my CMP # maybe five years ago? Who cares? I've shot in maybe a dozen Garand matches, and, like I said, ammo was mixed and everybody got the same mix.

P.S. I hate shooting Garand matches and generally do poorly in them. I do it basically so I don't get made fun of (doesn't work, by the way). I mean really; shooting a match with a glorified catapult? What's up with that?