Worman v. Baker (MA AWB) Oral Arguments 1-9-2019

[JJ4]

Also in response to the above:

http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/MPTC_NEWS/Patrol_Rifle_Student_Manual_2010.pdf


Municipal Police Training Committee
Basic Firearms Instructor Course PATROL RIFLE

We have found most officers have difficulty hitting the MPTC Q target with regularity using their service pistol at distances further than the 10 yard line. Now, factor in the stress level of a life and death encounter with rapidly evolving circumstances – the actual hit ratio drops even further. Beyond 15 yards the shotgun with multiple round projectile, may yield more hit potential however the recoil and manual operation of the shotgun has historically proved to be an issue with some Officers. If the load is buck shot, beyond 18 yards the shot spread will begin to exceed the width of the torso. This violates the accountability for all rounds down range rule. The slug round provides the logical alternative with longer range, more accuracy and no shot spread. It also has greater penetration which can be considered both a positive and negative factor when considering its use in urban areas or near thin walled homes. Conversely, the most popular patrol rifle round, the 5.56mm NATO (.223 Remington) will penetrate fewer walls than service pistol rounds or 12 gauge slugs.

The rifle is a superior tool. It allows the officer to either stand off from the threat or, if the situation requires, advance to the threat with the confidence that the tool in their hands can deal with almost any perceived threat.

Bolding mine.

 

[Waher]

If this goes to an actual trial I think Healey is going to have a hard time defending her intentionally vague statements in light of the unanswered letters from the Governor and legislature, in addition to Secretary Galvin's statements on her contempt in ignoring state public record requests. The SCotUS statements in Caetano about the fecklessness of the state caring more about its own power are epitomized by the AG's misconduct and I really think if the federal judges aren't total hacks this will come back to bite dimples in the ass.

I think Comm2A did a really good job of boxing the AG in with a foundation of case law and her own asinine statements & actions over the past few years.

 

[Drix]

argue that "copy" means "similar" and that this is not vague. But what does similar mean in the context of firearms?

When Healey put out her shit on firearms, I started going through all the "guns that are not assault weapons" to figure out what she thought was and wasn't a copy or similar.

After wading through a shit ton of rifles, what I found was that pretty much everything on the list of not assault weapons was either 1) A few grand 2) Out of production 3) Not fed by an external magazine and/or 4) Not black and pointy.

Many of the rifles still use the same operating systems (M1 Garand and AK anyone?), some share parts, but nearly all of them look like classic firearms. Given the amount of overlap, the only meaningful conclusion was that an assault weapon is a gun that looks evil and is fed by a magazine with a capability of being larger than 8 rounds.

 

[Roy Rogers]

I can't wait for Healy's hubris to bite her in the ass.

I just read both briefs and i need help understanding why our side used a specific quote. Maybe I'm misreading the plaintiff's brief, but I've read similar mis-quotes of Scalia, most recently from Senator Feinstein's questioning of then nominee Judge Gorsuch.

"Even though Heller recognizes that “weapons that are most useful in military service – M16 rifles and the like – may be banned,” Heller, 554 U.S."

That erroneously suggests that weapons like the M16 can be banned. But the actual text of Heller reads... (emphasis mine)

"If weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second
Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause"

Which suggests to me the opposite.

Excellent catch.

 

[Fixxah]

What if a bunch of us file suits to flood the AG?

They will raise our taxes to play the game. Then give themselves another raise.

 

[Qjake17]

@Comm2A Thanks! Keep up the fight!

$$ Sent

 

[smokey-seven]

Municipal Police Training Committee
Basic Firearms Instructor Course PATROL RIFLE
(stuff deleted)
.... This violates the accountability for all rounds down range rule.

So when an officer fires 18 rounds from his 9mm and scores a hit or two, that does NOT violate the accountability for rounds downrange?

 

[Mesatchornug]

Also in response to the above:

http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/MPTC_NEWS/Patrol_Rifle_Student_Manual_2010.pdf


Municipal Police Training Committee
Basic Firearms Instructor Course PATROL RIFLE



Bolding mine.

absolutely one of my favorite citations, in part because its source is MA LE

 

[Len-2A Training]

If this goes to an actual trial I think Healey is going to have a hard time defending her intentionally vague statements in light of the unanswered letters from the Governor and legislature, in addition to Secretary Galvin's statements on her contempt in ignoring state public record requests. The SCotUS statements in Caetano about the fecklessness of the state caring more about its own power are epitomized by the AG's misconduct and I really think if the federal judges aren't total hacks this will come back to bite dimples in the ass.

I think Comm2A did a really good job of boxing the AG in with a foundation of case law and her own asinine statements & actions over the past few years.

Her game plan is to stall and do everything possible to make sure it does not go to trial but the case gets thrown out on procedural issues, just like the other cases Comm2A has brought forth. And the courts are laden with hacks so we are still in danger if it goes to trial.

 

[Drix]

Remember too that the NSSF was spouting nonsense about LTCs not being renewed if someone owned an AR. Naturally, the NSSF never thought to ask the subject matter experts if this was really happening

And here I've been blaming Jim Wallace and GOAL, he's on video repeating the same claim if I remember correctly. I'm sorry Jim!

 

[Boris]

When Healey put out her shit on firearms, I started going through all the "guns that are not assault weapons" to figure out what she thought was and wasn't a copy or similar.

After wading through a shit ton of rifles, what I found was that pretty much everything on the list of not assault weapons was either 1) A few grand 2) Out of production 3) Not fed by an external magazine and/or 4) Not black and pointy.

Many of the rifles still use the same operating systems (M1 Garand and AK anyone?), some share parts, but nearly all of them look like classic firearms. Given the amount of overlap, the only meaningful conclusion was that an assault weapon is a gun that looks evil and is fed by a magazine with a capability of being larger than 8 rounds.

I was making the same argument to a friend a few days back, the MGL says: "hundreds of rifles and shotguns that are not assault weapons" but in reality these "hundreds" are less than a dozen of autoloading centerfires:

Browning BAR Mark II Safari Semi-Auto Rifle
Browning BAR Mark II Safari Magnum Rifle
Browning High-Power Rifle
Heckler & Koch Model 300 Rifle
IverJohnson M–1 Carbine
Iver Johnson 50th Anniversary M–1 Carbine
Marlin Model 9 Camp Carbine
Marlin Model 45 Carbine
Remington Nylon 66 Auto-Loading Rifle
Remington Model 7400 Auto Rifle
Remington Model 7400 Rifle
Remington Model 7400 Special Purpose Auto Rifle
Ruger Mini-14 Autoloading Rifle (w/o folding stock)
Ruger Mini Thirty Rifle

yea, any one of them that are more or less reliable costs a whole shitload, like toward 1k.

In terms of parts interchangeability in the MGL, it's wish-washy saying these are SOME but not an exclusive list of parts that if they interchange, then it's an assault rifle, shit like "ejection port" or some other lunacy.

 

[kalash]

It makes me happy how stupid Healey sounds and that it's on paper.

Both quotes from the defense’s latest writings:



The trial might need a few examples. A cursory search which may need verification.

5 People Who Used An AR-15 to Defend Themselves, and It Probably Saved Their Lives

And most famously: Oklahoma man killed three teen home intruders using AR-15 rifle



AR-15 Rifles For Home Defense? Yes!

Hey, does anyone know where we can find a copy of the questioning the Defense is referring to in the first quote above?

There's also the example of Stephen Willeford, the gentleman who used an AR15 to stop the Sutherland Springs mass shooter.

 

[evalance]

would be nice to be able to purchase lowers again , would like to build my own ar

 

[Tyke]

Both quotes from the defense’s latest writings:



The trial might need a few examples. A cursory search which may need verification.

5 People Who Used An AR-15 to Defend Themselves, and It Probably Saved Their Lives

And most famously: Oklahoma man killed three teen home intruders using AR-15 rifle



AR-15 Rifles For Home Defense? Yes!

Hey, does anyone know where we can find a copy of the questioning the Defense is referring to in the first quote above?

There's also a federal RFP which explicitly states that a select fire rifle with 30 round mag is suitable for personal defense.

 

[71montess]

would be nice to be able to purchase lowers again , would like to build my own ar

You still can.

 

[sigfanboy13]

Her game plan is to stall and do everything possible to make sure it does not go to trial but the case gets thrown out on procedural issues, just like the other cases Comm2A has brought forth. And the courts are laden with hacks so we are still in danger if it goes to trial.

As a younger gun owner, which ones were those?

 

[evalance]

You still can.

Yes but without paying 500 for a lower ?

 

[Len-2A Training]

As a younger gun owner, which ones were those?

Go to this website and click on some of the cases that Comm2A were involved in and read the way they were "disposed of" by the courts.
Past Projects - Commonwealth Second Amendment, Inc. (comm2a.org)
Jarvis v. Village Vault and Draper v. Healey are classic examples.

 

[Horrible]

I was making the same argument to a friend a few days back, the MGL says: "hundreds of rifles and shotguns that are not assault weapons" but in reality these "hundreds" are less than a dozen of autoloading centerfires:



yea, any one of them that are more or less reliable costs a whole shitload, like toward 1k.

In terms of parts interchangeability in the MGL, it's wish-washy saying these are SOME but not an exclusive list of parts that if they interchange, then it's an assault rifle, shit like "ejection port" or some other lunacy.

Ah, the ever expanding definition of "Assault Weapon". Its vague on purpose, folks.

 

[Boris]

here is the "test" for interchangeability to determine if you got an "assault weapon", oh yeah, it's not exhaustive list:

Interchangeability Test: A weapon is a Copy or Duplicate if it has a receiver that is the same as or interchangeable with the receiver of an Enumerated Weapon. A receiver will be treated as the same as or interchangeable with the receiver on an Enumerated Weapon if it includes or accepts two or more operating components that are the same as or interchangeable with those of an Enumerated Weapon. Such operating components may include, but are not limited to: 1) the trigger assembly; 2) the bolt carrier or bolt carrier group; 3) the charging handle; 4) the extractor or extractor assembly; or 5) the magazine port.

"the magazine port" ???? WUT?

These a**h***s are not dumb, it's the definition that basically covers everything under the sun, including all FUDD shotties. We already know that they ARE after your muzzleloaders.

 

[Dennis in MA]

When Healey put out her shit on firearms, I started going through all the "guns that are not assault weapons" to figure out what she thought was and wasn't a copy or similar.

After wading through a shit ton of rifles, what I found was that pretty much everything on the list of not assault weapons was either 1) A few grand 2) Out of production 3) Not fed by an external magazine and/or 4) Not black and pointy.

Many of the rifles still use the same operating systems (M1 Garand and AK anyone?), some share parts, but nearly all of them look like classic firearms. Given the amount of overlap, the only meaningful conclusion was that an assault weapon is a gun that looks evil and is fed by a magazine with a capability of being larger than 8 rounds.

Is that any different than the original 1994 AWB???

Telescoping stocks?

Barrel shrouds???????

Bayonet lug?????????????

None of it makes sense. It's ALWAYS about the looks, not the "danger." And it always relates back to normal people, not typical criminals. (Granted, a lot of MSR's are being used by modern mass murderers. But they could use post-ban AR's and accomplish exactly the same thing!)



One has to wonder if Healey will even be around when this gets to eventual court. Same with the Ammo thing. She can't be settling for her current post. Either Guv'nah or some sort of national post. She's being WAAAAAY too public about STUUUUPID things to be just trying to keep her current job.

 

[adam01364]

One has to wonder if Healey will even be around when this gets to eventual court. She can't be settling for her current post. Either Guv'nah or some sort of national post. She's being WAAAAAY too public about STUUUUPID things to be just trying to keep her current job.

I think she was banking on billery being prez and for sumthin national. With the billery crash & burn, methinks the next move is fer guv'nah.

 

[Waher]

Maybe someone told her US AG (she was a shoe in for 2016) in 2020 or Markey's replacement?

 

[groundscrapers]

I would imagine that the FA10 system would crash the day her ruling gets rejected. Which brings me to my next thought... is a system that doesn't include a paper option not discriminatory to those who don't own computers.

 

[Squire]

The July 2016 edict was Left-wing Statist Gang Initiation: she had to prove herself worthy of the Cabinet by taking a giant shit on law-abiding MA gun owners.

Her ambitions are beyond shithole Massachusetts, her best bet at this point is a Warren Vice Presidency so she can backfill Left-wing Statist Senator from MA. She needs to get as far away from MA as possible before SCotUS gets a hold of her edict in a couple years.

I think she was banking on billery being prez and for sumthin national. With the billery crash & burn, methinks the next move is fer guv'nah.

 

[Koolmoose]

Maybe someone told her US AG (she was a shoe in for 2016) in 2020 or Markey's replacement?

Markey is a seat holder for Joe Kennedy lll, who will continue the antigun policies of his uncle. Our only hope for fair representation in the Senate is a less antigun GOPer taking the place of Fauxahantus next year.

 

[yanici]

Markey is a seat holder for Joe Kennedy lll, who will continue the antigun policies of his uncle. Our only hope for fair representation in the Senate is a less antigun GOPer taking the place of Fauxahantus next year.

This. You could also say the same for Warren should she try to move up.

 

[Boris]

Yes but without paying 500 for a lower ?

lube-up or tool-up and be quiet about it

I think she was banking on billery being prez and for sumthin national. With the billery crash & burn, methinks the next move is fer guv'nah.

bingo! Just remember the timing of the 7/20 edict and that the next day she was in DC at the anti-gun conference. There is no such thing as coincidences.

 

[sigfanboy13]

I would imagine that the FA10 system would crash the day her ruling gets rejected. Which brings me to my next thought... is a system that doesn't include a paper option not discriminatory to those who don't own computers.

For sure, once May hits I'm telling my FFL to immediately bill my card for some AR's if we win. I'm positive I'm not the only one.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The decision will most likely be based on what the presiding judge would like to see as public policy, rather than points of law.