Will this lock box keep me in the clear?

[Bradley J.]

I live on the Ma/Nh boarder and I spend 90% of my time in NH so I plan on having a carry pistol on me. Obviously I can't leave my house with a CW because my town will not issue an ALP license. So I figure I can just keep my pistol locked up till I'm over the boarder like I were going to a range. BTW this is with a non resident NH permit so carrying in a vehicle is okay. This is what I was planning on buying for a few reasons.

First it's cheap. 30 bucks I can buy two (car/bike)
Second it has the cable to secure it, although in my car I wouldn't mind the sentry safe but thats 3 times the price
Third it's pretty small so thats good for my saddle bag on the bike. Unfortunately I won't be able to use the cable on my bike but I have locking hard saddle bags so I would feel pretty good that it's not going anywhere. (two locked cases)

My question/s is, is this case good enough for MA laws? I can't see why it wouldn't be, heck my pistol carry case for the range is probably easier to break into.

Also would it be wrong to have this mounted inside my car as apposed to my trunk? I will say that the trunk is the best spot for it (if I had to argue the point to authorities) but as for ease of use it would be better for me to have it in the cab (since the reason is I can't carry in MA I can lock it up before I cross into MA) I have read MA laws trying to find something saying in cab is not legal but I have found nothing. All I have found is that the gun must be in a locked container. I have to pull over on the bike to strap up my helmet (thanks again Mass!!!!) and I have plenty of discreet places to transfer a pistol into a lock box in my saddle bag but I don't wanna pull my car over every time I'm almost in MA. When in MA I would have the pistol locked in the box with Mag out and to further the frustration I would also empty the mag cause I can't find anything about a loaded mag being legal/illegal while it is locked in a proper case.

Anyone who knows the laws, I thank you in advance.

 

[Kevlar]

My question/s is, is this case good enough for MA laws?

Yes. Legal for transportation and/or storage.

Also would it be wrong to have this mounted inside my car as apposed to my trunk?

No. Legal either way.

I would also empty the mag cause I can't find anything about a loaded mag being legal/illegal while it is locked in a proper case.

Loaded mags are not a violation of law.

 

[M1911]

Yes. Legal for transportation and/or storage.
No. Legal either way.
Loaded mags are not a violation of law.

Kevlar nailed it.

 

[Bradley J.]

Well I thank you guys for the help. I assumed the box was good, Wasn't sure about the location (trunk/cab) I will probably still take the mag out but not unload the mag itself.


My thing with the box being inside the car is whats to say I can't reach for it and unlock it to use (while in Ma)???? Not that I will but just saying as an argument that could come up, maybe a better analogy is the cop says I was fiddling around during a pull over and he believes I was "stashing" my "weapon"? (Not that I would, I am all about being a law abiding citizen. I like my insurance low, my gun privileges as they are, and my record clean) I'd really like to find that part of the law that states I can have a locked box in my car(not trunk) I'll keep reading the laws and maybe find something. But again thanks for the info guys!!!!

 

[Kevlar]

...I will probably still take the mag out but not unload the mag itself.

Just to be clear, in this situation, you cannot store/transport in MA with a loaded mag in the firearm. You must remove the loaded mag from the firearm, but you do not have to unload the mag itself.

...I'd really like to find that part of the law that states I can have a locked box in my car(not trunk) I'll keep reading the laws and maybe find something.

Anything that is not prohibited by law is, by default, legal.

 

[vellnueve]

Anything that is not prohibited by law is, by default, legal.

Exactly. You're stuck in the sheeple mentality.

 

[KMaurer]

Just to be clear, in this situation, you cannot store/transport in MA with a loaded mag in the firearm. You must remove the loaded mag from the firearm, but you do not have to unload the mag itself.

For transportation (which is what's under discussion here), that's correct, but there's nothing requiring that a firearm be unloaded for storage.

Ken

 

[60 buckscash]

As it was explained to me by my ltc teacher/local cop handguns must be in a locked case and the ammo seperate from it, if it wasn't on your body.

 

[M1911]

As it was explained to me by my ltc teacher/local cop handguns must be in a locked case and the ammo seperate from it, if it wasn't on your body.

Your instructor was incorrect. For storage, the gun can be loaded. For transport in a car, the gun must be unloaded, but there is nothing in the statute that requires the ammunition to be separate from the gun.

We've posted the statutes multiple times. Go read them for yourself.

Transport in a vehicle: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131c.htm
Storage: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131l.htm

Please, if you are unable to give citations about the law, please don't repeat the "my instructor said..." "a cop I know said..." "the guy at the gun store said..." because 9 times out of 10 they are wrong and you simply adding to the confusion.

IANAL, so it is unclear to me whether a parked, unoccupied car would be governed by the storage or transport clauses -- so the conservative approach would be to follow the more restrictive law, which is the transport.

 

[Mach]

Your instructor was incorrect. For storage, the gun can be loaded. For transport in a car, the gun must be unloaded, but there is nothing in the statute that requires the ammunition to be separate from the gun.

We've posted the statutes multiple times. Go read them for yourself.

Transport in a vehicle: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131c.htm
Storage: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131l.htm

Please, if you are unable to give citations about the law, please don't repeat the "my instructor said..." "a cop I know said..." "the guy at the gun store said..." because 9 times out of 10 they are wrong and you simply adding to the confusion.

IANAL, so it is unclear to me whether a parked, unoccupied car would be governed by the storage or transport clauses -- so the conservative approach would be to follow the more restrictive law, which is the transport.

The law doesn't use the word transport. the law uses "Carrying of firearms in a vehicle". You can't possibly be carrying a firearm in a vehicle if you aren't in the vehicle. the storage law says unlawful to store or keep in any place unless locked up. You can therefore store or keep it anywhere as long as you abide by the provisions for storage which means locked up, or with a tamper resistant device.

For carrying in a car the gun must be unloaded and in a locked container / trigger lock or be loaded and under your direct control.

The storage law doesn't say it has to be stored in a building and it doesn't say it must be stored unloaded.

There is nothing in the law that says a handgun must be unloaded when stored in a parked vehicle. If you stop the vehicle, lock the loaded gun in a case and leave it in your car, nothing says that isn't stored properly. There is no differentiation in the law about storing at home or storing in a car. A stored weapon is locked in a container or has a tamper resistant lock that prevents unauthorised persons from gaining access. It says nothing about having to be unloaded and it says nothing about location of said weapon relative to a car, boat, house or hotel.

Someone would be hard pressed to claim you are carrying a firearm in your car, if your car is parked and you are not in your car.



Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

Chapter 140: Section 131C. Carrying of firearms in a vehicle

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

 

[Kevlar]

There is nothing in the law that says a handgun must be unloaded when stored in a parked vehicle. If you stop the vehicle, lock the loaded gun in a case and leave it in your car, nothing says that isn't stored properly.

The EOPS disagrees with your interpretation.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopster...&b=terminalcontent&f=chsb_frb_faqs&csid=Eeops

Q: Can I leave my gun in my car if I need to go into the store on my way home from the range or from hunting?

A: If your handgun or large capacity rifle or shotgun is transported in accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 140, §131C (i.e. unloaded and in a locked case, locked trunk or other secure container) then the gun may be left unattended in the vehicle. Weapons transported in this manner will automatically be considered "stored or kept" in compliance with the safe storage requirements of §131L.

 

[Mach]

The EOPS disagrees with your interpretation.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopster...&b=terminalcontent&f=chsb_frb_faqs&csid=Eeops

Q: Can I leave my gun in my car if I need to go into the store on my way home from the range or from hunting?

A: If your handgun or large capacity rifle or shotgun is transported in accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 140, §131C (i.e. unloaded and in a locked case, locked trunk or other secure container) then the gun may be left unattended in the vehicle. Weapons transported in this manner will automatically be considered "stored or kept" in compliance with the safe storage requirements of §131L.

Yes I see that used for reference a lot. But look at what he is saying. He is saying if you are transporting a gun unloaded and in a locked case, then when you stop your car and get out it is considered in compliance with the safe storage requirements. He is giving an example. He is not saying his example is the ONLY example of what is legally stored in a car. Just because A is true does not mean B is false. He does not say if you have LTC A and are carrying a loaded weapon on your person, that when you stop and leave it in the car, you must unload it first. The safe storage requirements of 131L that he quotes does not say the gun has to be unloaded, nor does it say it can't be stored in a car unless it is unloaded. it simply states it must be locked in a secure container. There is no specification on where that container can or can not be.

You can have unloaded guns stored at home in compliance with the safe storage requirements in 131L, but that does not mean that loaded guns are NOT in compliance. It just means that unloaded guns are in compliance. nothing in the law states anything about being loaded or unloaded or where the locked container is located. he specifically said, guns will be considered stored or kept in a vehicle if in compliance with 131L, which says nothing about being loaded or not loaded.

 

[SGZip]

I agree. EOPS is simply stating that the less restrictive requirements of M.G.L. c. 140, §131L are met by the more restrictive requirements of M.G.L. c. 140, §131C. The question of whether the gun can be loaded is different from the EOPS question, although it's really only important if you're carrying concealed already, but you don't want to, or can't, carry into certain places, like the place where you work, for instance.

However, I'm wondering if the OP is asking a different question, being from Lowell. I would assume that concealed carry is not an option, so I think that this is a trunk vs. cabin issue for transport in accordance with 131C. If that's correct, then the answer is that it can only be loaded at the range or hunting/hiking, etc., depending on the LTC restriction as defined by the CLEO. But a locked container that's accessible to the driver should still be fine, as long as it's unloaded.

 

[Kevlar]

.

.

FWIW, I agree with both of you that, on their face, s.131L would seem to control all storage and s.131C would seem to control transport only. However, due the confounding and byzantine nature of MA gun laws, they cannot be taken at face value, nor interpreted using common sense or logic. It is generally accepted that s.131L controls general storage, and s.131C controls vehicle storage and transport. This has been stated numerous times by both Scrivener and Cross-X, two prominent firearms attorneys on this board, and Chief Ron Glidden, Chairman of the GCAB. In the absence of any case law to the contrary, I would be inclined to follow their advice. YMMV.

 

[Mach]

I have thought about this long and hard. the only other interpretation I can come up with takes me back to an SOP I must comply with that considers transport to still be transport even if you stop the vehicle and get out because storage has defined locations. MA storage 131L doesn't define locations however:

I originally thought the answer to the question in the FAQ was all encompassing, to include long guns which MUST be unloaded on a public way and since a car would be on a public way, the long guns in the car must be unloaded whether or not you are in the car, and did not necessarily apply to handguns since they can be loaded on a public way.

However, I have come up with another rational. Since the word 'carry' as used in MGL includes the carriage of a weapon in a vehicle, as in a LTC class B is considered 'carry' of a weapon even though it must remain unloaded and locked, it could be interpreted that when the vehicle is at an intermittent destination, as in a temporary stop for food, then the 'carry' is still in progress, even though the vehicle is stopped and the LTC holder is not in the vehicle. If that interpretation is correct, then that would require that any weapon, including a handgun, since the carry is still in progress and it is not under your direct control, must be unloaded and locked.

I don't think of carry like that, ( as does most of the world ) however, MGL does seem to include 'carry' as being in the truck of a car outside your direct control. The confusing part is when the answer to the FAQ makes a reference to having an unloaded and locked gun in the vehicle when you leave the vehicle as being compliant with 131L meeting the requirements of 'storage'. I don't see how a 'carry' in a vehicle could meet the requirements of 'storage' at the same time, meaning the carry is still in progress at an intermediate stop. it seems it should be one or the other. under carry regs or storage regs.

The whole thing is an abortion. I just want to know what is legal when I don't want to bring my CCW into the doctors office or post office. The idea that I have to unload and then load it in my car is insanity and asking for an AD or ND due to fatigue or lack of coffee or malfunction. I have seen perfectly operable weapons discharge when being chambered, which is why all LEO and military loading stations have a clearing chamber. Now the law requires me, if I am carrying a concealed weapon, to unload it and then re-load it on my return.

If 131C covers storage in a vehicle then why does the FAQ reference 131L as being complied with in reference to an unloaded and locked gun in a car.

That just isn't smart to me and goes against all my training.

 

[M1911]

Someone would be hard pressed to claim you are carrying a firearm in your car, if your car is parked and you are not in your car.

1) The meaning of words in a law depends upon their definition, either in statute or in case law. As a result, their meaning in the statute is often not the same as their meaning in typical usage. For example, in most MA gun laws, a rifle or shotgun is not a firearm -- see the definition of the word "firearm" in MGL Chapter 140 Section 121. Remember when Clinton said:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

We often read the text of a law and think we know what it means, but don't really because we don't know the legal definitions of the words in the statute.

2) Two noted firearms attorneys on this board have said that handguns locked in an unattended car must be unloaded.