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Why are Lugers obsolete ?

SalemCat

SalemCat

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Semi-Auto pistols with a Slide seem to have taken over.

Yet the Slide can injure the operator, as it moves with great force.

The Luger had a Toggle on the top - no slide. It seems to me to be much safer.

Why aren't they made anymore ?
 
Expensive to make, lots of parts, not a terribly robust design, the loading a fresh mag/chambering first round process is a little weird if you're not used to it, prone to doubling with wear, squishy trigger spring, gets fouled relatively easy.
 
I have. It was super accurate, and pointed very naturally. But I'm glad it belonged to another member of my range, and I didn't have to clean it. It seemed pretty complicated.
 
No, never held one, let alone shot one.

As far as manufacturing issues go, there have been major advances since 1942 in creating inexpensive but effective parts.

Why do they suck to shoot ?
 
jamison55 said:
I have. It was super accurate, and pointed very naturally. But I'm glad it belonged to another member of my range, and I didn't have to clean it. It seemed pretty complicated.
Click to expand...

The CZ-82 is very complicated, but reliable.

Perhaps the one advantage I see, eliminating the Slide, is not such an advantage after all.

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I always thought the Lugers were distinctive and "cool-looking". Hardly a reason to buy one, but "cool-looking" works for the Automotive Industry every day.
 
I have shot many of them. I hate the way the recoil feels and the way it ejects almost straight up. The first shot in the indoor range at WPRC broke 2 4' florescent lights one of then landed on me after the shot.

That said, I think they are great guns and a mechanical masterpiece. Like other things, we found ways to make them cheaper and better. There is no doubt that you are holding a piece of machinery and for a 1898 design it was (and is) bad ass.
 
The toggle requires two strong hands to cock. The sear bar and leaf spring are external. The trigger sucks. Again, lots of small intricate parts like a clock.
 
Mike-Mike said:
I have shot many of them. I hate the way the recoil feels and the way it ejects almost straight up. The first shot in the indoor range at WPRC broke 2 4' florescent lights one of then landed on me after the shot.

That said, I think they are great guns and a mechanical masterpiece. Like other things, we found ways to make them cheaper and better. There is no doubt that you are holding a piece of machinery and for a 1898 design it was (and is) bad ass.
Click to expand...

LOL ! Breaking overhead lamps is certainly not something that the original designers would have considered.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." Albert Einstein

If the Luger was needlessly complicated, so be it - FAIL.

Though the very cool Thompson Sub-Machine Gun has been criticized as needlessly complicated as well.

The M3 Grease-Gun replaced it.

I still like the idea of a Toggle instead of a Slide, though. And ejecting shells straight up ? The jury is out.

Lugers sure are cool looking, though.
 
Sir_Macadoo said:
The toggle requires two strong hands to cock. The sear bar and leaf spring are external. The trigger sucks. Again, lots of small intricate parts like a clock.
Click to expand...

It has lots of precision parts, yes, but they're not that complicated, and the parts aren't that small.

The problem as I see it is that they fail when they wear or aren't manufactured carefully. A sloppy fit will make it fail. A sloppy 1911 or Glock? You'd almost never notice if you weren't looking for a fancy-ass gun.

My Luger is remarkable in that it's exceptionally reliable, but I wouldn't want to fit a new anything to it if I didn't really have to.
 
All said, I love mine. 1918 Erfurt. Always draws looks and conversation when I bring her out. Though sometimes she slips into FA and dumps the mag. I put her away when that happens.

Fair enough, milk, I do agree tolerances are tight on a Luger. But i still say the luger frame is complicated to machine, and those parts, small or not were all milled a century ago, and intricate IMO.

The sear bar doesn't take much to round and get you in trouble. And the sear spring is nothing more than a piece of flat spring steel, prone to behaving badly IME. I'm no Luger expert, I've shot a few and they were all finicky with squishy triggers. But they are iconic, ergonomic, and cool as hell.
 
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SalemCat said:
No, never held one, let alone shot one.
Click to expand...

Where are you? I'd bet a couple magazines of 9mm that there's people here who would let you shoot theirs.

As far as manufacturing issues go, there have been major advances since 1942 in creating inexpensive but effective parts.
Click to expand...

Yes, and the solutions were things like the p.38, 1911, Glock, Browning Hi-Power, etc.


Why do they suck to shoot ?
Click to expand...

They have a very raked back grip angle (very similar to a Ruger MK-1/2/3) which doesn't match a lot of people's hands
the recoil is really snappy.
they're fussy to load
the sights suck
the trigger makes some people unhappy (both feel, and long reach)
the barrel is pretty short for its overall length
replacement parts are *really* expensive (not really about shooting)
field stripping is confusing and bizarre at first, before you know how to run it (not really about shooting)
 
Sir_Macadoo said:
All said, I love mine. 1918 Erfurt. Always draws looks and conversation when I bring her out. Though sometimes she slips into FA and dumps the mag. I put her away when that happens.
Click to expand...

Yikes! Get yourself to a machinist or parts distributor post haste! Fix that problem!



Fair enough, milk, I do agree tolerances are tight on a Luger. But i still say the luger frame is complicated to machine, and those parts, small or not were all milled a century ago, and intricate IMO.

The sear bar doesn't take much to round and get you in trouble. And the sear spring is nothing more than a piece of flat spring steel, prone to behaving badly IME. I'm no Luger expert, I've shot a few and they were all finicky with squishy triggers. But they are iconic, ergonomic, and cool as hell.
Click to expand...

On all of this, I totally agree. Especially about the "cool as hell" part. :)
 
milktree said:
Yikes! Get yourself to a machinist or parts distributor post haste!
Click to expand...

I know right? Scared the crap out of me the first time that happened. [rofl]

I have since gotten a hold of replacement parts and she's all good. But those parts were friggan expensive or what they are.
 
I love mine for the same reasons some people like Italian sports cars - intricate, tight tolerances etc. When you shoot it you know it's something special. No one at the range has ever refused when I offer them to try it out and there is always an onlooker or two. Of course, if you need to get to work on time or defend yourself against a zombie, best to leave the Italian car and the Luger at home...
 
It was a great firearm for its time. Yes, it did have its issues, but it did see front-line service in two wars. It was also used by some police forces after the war. The US came very close to adopting the Luger in 45 ACP as the military's SideArm.
 
PATRON said:
It was a great firearm for its time. Yes, it did have its issues, but it did see front-line service in two wars. It was also used by some police forces after the war. The US came very close to adopting the Luger in 45 ACP as the military's SideArm.
Click to expand...

That's my (and any other collectors) unicorn. One of the 4 (or more) Lugers chambered in 45ACP submitted for trials to the US Army in 1910.
 
milktree said:
the barrel is pretty short for its overall length
Click to expand...

Well, not all of them[smile]
8e2f1879.jpg


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TTA89 said:
Does anyone know where they are? I'd assume at least 1 of them is in a museum somewhere....
Click to expand...

One of them, "Luger No. 2", sold for a meager $365,000 ~ 2 years ago. The last time she got sold before
she fetched a million bucks.
 
Wow, no love for the Luger!?!?! To me the grip angle perfectly centers the pistol to your target. The toggle is not big deal to operrate. I actually love the sights on the Luger. I dissagree about the squishy trigger. If yours is squishy, you need a trigger job done to it. All of mine are tight and responsive. I have found that people that have trouble with feeding are from either worn magazines or worn magazine releases. If you are shooting 100% originals, you are bound to have worn parts. I never wanted a 100% all original. Mine are all well maintained non matching but fully functional shooters. These are very fun to shoot.

The reason they were they were discontinued was due to the cost to build them as all parts were hand fitted to each gun and the tolorances were tight and tended to jam up in battle.

All of this being said, as many of you know, I am a p38 nut. The p38 was the replacement to the Luger(P08). This was cheaper to produce and parts can be interchanged with other pistols and kept in service. That can not be said of the Luger. Parts interchange with a Luger is a crap shoot. It could function very well but most likely it would have to be fitted to the gun. So if you have a non matching gun and it doesnt work 100% or is finicky, you can bet your ass that someone replaced a part and didnt have it fitted right. All of mine have been looked over and fitted where needed by a guy called "LugerDoc". He is well known in the industry.
 
SalemCat said:
The CZ-82 is very complicated, but reliable.

Perhaps the one advantage I see, eliminating the Slide, is not such an advantage after all.
Click to expand...


cz vz82 is NOT a complicated gun. FCG there is a bit on the finer side but it's just slightly more complex than soviet PM.

browning 1911 is an example of a complicated design. TT-33 is same browning's idea implemented ion non-complicated way.

there is more positive comes from a slide than negative. how often do you hear people being injured by a 'fast moving' slide?
 
There was a guy named Krause in San Jose, CA. area who was making new stainless .45 Luger pistols about ten years ago. The hand fitting that went on was a major part of the building. I think the tag was $10K each.

So they are still in demand.

I could not find the interview with Mike showing his display of partial finished lowers and upper cannon but this will give you an idea and sjow he was not the only person that built them.

Nedbal Werle Luger Cal 45. ACP - A copy of the ONE MILLION DOLLAR LUGER - YouTube
 
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Hear is my dyf 42 and my 1915 DWM with snail drum magazine.All the leather is reproduction.
 

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