"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

[cmacclel]

So I got my Form 1 approved a while back and need to Engrave my SBR. I want to engrave the barrel with my Trust Information and since it's an SBR the handgaurd covers all of the barrel. My handgaurd does have 1" long by 3/8" wide slots that would make the trust name easily seen, there are many opinions on the ATF's "wholly unobstructed from plain view" statement.

I personally think if the trust name can be viewed without removing any parts then I would think it would be ok.

Opinion?

 

[noxin]

I was under the impression it had to be on the lower/receiver since that is the part that is registered and has the tax stamp.

 

[cmacclel]

I was under the impression it had to be on the lower/receiver since that is the part that is registered and has the tax stamp.

For an SBR it can be anywhere......Lower, Upper, or Barrel.

ATF 5300.4 in 27 CFR 479.102 (page 92) describes what is necessary to engrave on a SBR or SBS when one is manufacturing. This is not necessary if you purchase one that is already manufactured as it will have been done for you.

1) On the Frame or Receiver the Serial number;

2) on the frame, receiver, or barrel the following additional information;

A)The model;

B)The caliber or gage;

C)Your name or name of the Trust in the case of a Trust (no abbreviations are permitted for the Trust name);

D)The city and state (you can abbreviate the state with the official 2 digit state code)

The above mentioned information must be engraved, casted, stamped (impressing) or otherwise conspicuously placed or caused to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size of the Serial number shall be no smaller than 1/16 inch.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Upper. It is too easy to inadvertently obscure the trust name on a short barrel, and the upper and barrel can be easily removed together if the lower is to be repurposed.

 

[cmacclel]

Upper. It is too easy to inadvertently obscure the trust name on a short barrel, and the upper and barrel can be easily removed together if the lower is to be repurposed.

If I didn't have a $300 upper I would just engrave on the upper. The reason why I want to engrave the barrel is my SBR is on a Pre-Ban lower and and Expensive side charging upper. The barrel is the cheapest part

 

[atilla]

both are a-ok, but otherwise just do the barrel. so what if the handguards cover it? if they are removed in the unlikely event an ATF agent is checking out your blaster... well, it's not obscured anymore, is it?

 

[Kevin_NH]

I was under the impression it had to be on the lower/receiver since that is the part that is registered and has the tax stamp.

In the case of an AR-15, that is correct, as the lower is the serialized part.

Even if you could get away with engraving the upper for an AR-style rifle, it makes no sense to do so, as that would prevent you from switching to a different short upper later.

 

[cmacclel]

In the case of an AR-15, that is correct, as the lower is the serialized part.

Even if you could get away with engraving the upper for an AR-style rifle, it makes no sense to do so, as that would prevent you from switching to a different short upper later.

The trust name can be on the barrel, lower, or upper. It may not make sense to you but I have a $800 lower and a $300 upper. The barrel cost me $75. So if I want to take value away from any of the rifle components the cheaper one sure makes sense to me. Also I can engrave in my home shop.

 

[warwickben]

"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

The trust name can be on the barrel, lower, or upper. It may not make sense to you but I have a $800 lower and a $300 upper. The barrel cost me $75. So if I want to take value away from any of the rifle components the cheaper one sure makes sense to me. Also I can engrave in my home shop.

Barrels get shot out and need replacing .... Pretty sure it's basically illegal to re engrave and claim it's the same weapon the stamp was approved for.

If you want to have a 7" 10" 12" and a 14" upper , different calibers etc, you can just engrave the lower and put what ever you want on top as long as you keep one barrel that matches the info for the stamp.

Also since you need to record the serial number , and it's linked to that lower any way . Selling it down the road is going to be a sbr sale no matter what. I figure it would make selling that lower harder since it's quicker transfer for some one to sbr a lower they own can buying one .

 

[cmacclel]

Barrels get shot out and need replacing .... Pretty sure it's basically illegal to re engrave and claim it's the same weapon the stamp was approved for.

If you want to have a 7" 10" 12" and a 14" upper , different calibers etc, you can just engrave the lower and put what ever you want on top as long as you keep one barrel that matches the info for the stamp

I'm not following you....... the "Serialized" lower is what is "Registered" in the ATF Database. If you where to replace a shot out barrel and had your trust name engraved on the replacement what would be the issue? Also to be legit even if you changed the barrel length you need to notify the ATF in writing. Many people just register the lower and have different uppers and don't care to notify the ATF but..............

 

[warwickben]

"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

I'm not following you....... the "Serialized" lower is what is "Registered" in the ATF Database. If you where to replace a shot out barrel and had your trust name engraved on the replacement what would be the issue? Also to be legit even if you changed the barrel length you need to notify the ATF in writing. Many people just register the lower and have different uppers and don't care to notify the ATF but..............

I messed up but I updated . Forgot you don't get a tax stamp code that needs engraving . So yeah re doing a trust name only on a barrel no big deal. But I belive there letters saying with a ar you can swap barrels but you need to be able to put it back to what the stamp says .

But you worrying about reselling it for loss cause of the engraving . I think isn't a big deal . Maybe trying to resell a sbr you'll probably lose more money vs the same lower not a sbr.

Think of it this way.
Me buying a sbr lower from you is going to take a lot longer to transfer then me buying a lower and submitting . I would just buy the same lower and efile .
Unless you have a crazy rare limited run lower that every one wants. Like a titanium ar lower with a donkey show engraving lol.
Not only that any time I shot the barrel out I would have to get one engraved .
Me personally .

In order of sbr guns I'd buy I'd stack them in this order .

I efile my own .
Buy some ones with the lower engraved .
Lower with a engraved upper
lower with a engraved barrel.

 

[cmacclel]

I messed up but I updated . Forgot you don't get a tax stamp code that needs engraving . So yeah re doing a trust name only on a barrel no big deal. But I belive there letters saying with a ar you can swap barrels but you need to be able to put it back to what the stamp says .

But you worrying about reselling it for loss cause of the engraving . I think isn't a big deal . Maybe trying to resell a sbr you'll probably lose more money vs the same lower not a sbr.

Think of it this way.
Me buying a sbr lower from you is going to take a lot longer to transfer then me buying a lower and submitting . I would just buy the same lower and efile .
Unless you have a crazy rare limited run lower that every one wants. Like a titanium at lower with a donkey show engraving lol.

I have a Bushmaster Pre-Ban lower so I guess it's Kinda like a titanium at lower with a donkey show engraving lol.

- - - Updated - - -

This is what I did.

 

[warwickben]

"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

I have a Bushmaster Pre-Ban lower so I guess it's Kinda like a titanium at lower with a donkey show engraving lol.

Low shelf or blocked sear ?
Aren't pre ban rifles really only valuable in the few ban states , then the rest of the states it's mainly colt fan boys willing to pay.

Engrave it on the bit of the pistol grip tang.
Think as a buyer. Would you want to pay some one every time you need a barrel replacement ?

 

[cmacclel]

Low shelf or blocked sear ?
Aren't pre ban rifles really only valuable in the few ban states , then the rest of the states it's mainly colt fan boys willing to pay.

Engrave it on the bit of the pistol grip tang.
Think as a buyer. Would you want to pay some one every time you need a barrel replacement ?

I have my own CNC Mill so to re-engrave a barrel would take me 10 minutes Yes Pre-Bans are only valuable in a few states but the prices have not seemed to drop at all. Sought after Pre-Ban lowered are still around $700. My lower is a Bushmaster so no sear block.

 

[warwickben]

I have my own CNC Mill so to re-engrave a barrel would take me 10 minutes Yes Pre-Bans are only valuable in a few states but the prices have not seemed to drop at all. Sought after Pre-Ban lowered are still around $700. My lower is a Bushmaster so no sear block.

That's awesome . Pm in bound lol.
I was thinking for resale tho, not every one can do it for free.

 

[atmay]

I have a $800 lower

 

[cmacclel]

Finally done ready to test fire.

 

[atilla]

+1. snicker snicker.

cmacclel why'd you go with the pre-ban lower? did you just have it kicking around already or were you worried about the definition of "rifle" WRT the MA AWB?

 

[cmacclel]

+1. snicker snicker.

cmacclel why'd you go with the pre-ban lower? did you just have it kicking around already or were you worried about the definition of "rifle" WRT the MA AWB?

I tend to error on the caution side...... I tried arguing the Rifle definition with 2 of my friends that are FFL's and they looked at me funny. I also already had the Pre-Ban lower.

 

[atilla]

I tend to error on the caution side...... I tried arguing the Rifle definition with 2 of my friends that are FFL's and they looked at me funny. I also already had the Pre-Ban lower.

eh nbd if you already had it. the funny thing is that all the people i know with FFLs agree with it not being a rifle once it's title II. 2/3 of them are/were FFL/SOT in MA.

then again there's no case law, i hope there never is, too. i never like seeing dudes jammed up over silly shit like that in MA.

 

[CTpatriot]

Low shelf or blocked sear ?
Aren't pre ban rifles really only valuable in the few ban states , then the rest of the states it's mainly colt fan boys willing to pay.

Engrave it on the bit of the pistol grip tang.
Think as a buyer. Would you want to pay some one every time you need a barrel replacement ?

as long as just one state recognizes preban like CT does, then the value is there on gunbroker. my colt sporter hbar lower is probably worth $800 to $1000.

 

[atilla]

colt sporter hbar lower is probably worth $800 to $1000.

that's ****ing insane.

 

[CTpatriot]

Finally done ready to test fire.

this made my morning wood harder.

 

[warwickben]

"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

that's ****ing insane.

Never got the attraction to the pony. Heck they sub the machine work out.

 

[atilla]

Never got the attraction to the pony. Heck the sub the machine work out.

i dig the pony. not gonna lie. it's like a ferrari.

 

[Almostelmo]

Finally done ready to test fire.

What kind of upper is that?

 

[CTpatriot]

that's ****ing insane.

right now there are 2 lowers on gunbroker from 650 to 700 plus, with bids, a few days left. so that's where they are at.

 

[JackO]

cmacclel
What is the stock on this SBR? How long is it in closed/open positions (from the lower to the end of the stock)?

Finally done ready to test fire.

 

[spt_1955]

The trust name can be on the barrel, lower, or upper. It may not make sense to you but I have a $800 lower and a $300 upper. The barrel cost me $75. So if I want to take value away from any of the rifle components the cheaper one sure makes sense to me. Also I can engrave in my home shop.

My understanding is that if you want to put it on the barrel then you will also have to add the serial number, model, etc. which is required. Plus why would you do that if you ever wanted to swap out the barrel you cannot and you couldn't.