What's the interest in semi-auto versions of sub-guns?

[GSG]

Ok, this is not at all to knock anyone, so please don't take it that way.

I look at all these sub machine guns in semi-auto out there and ask myself: "Why would anyone even want one?

For plinking they seem kinda lame. I can plink with a pistol that has obvious strong points (concealability, etc) or a rifle where I can really push my marksmanship skills.

For tactical use, well, honestly wouldn't a M4 semi work as well or better?

I'd love to have a full auto MP5 or Thompson, but I wouldn't spend anything on a semi-version of these cause I just kinda think to myself Whats the point?

Is anyone else left cold by these things or is it just me?

Bill, I take it you've never had the pleasure of a GSG-5?

http://demigodllc.com/articles/gsg-5-mp5-in-22-lr/

Great fun to shoot, and everyone else at the range is in awe until they hear the .22 report that comes out of it.

And Ray, I know nothing about the HK 94, but I did find this:

http://www.hk94.com/hk94.html

Hk94 Data
Hk94 Caliber 9x19mm Parabellum
Operation Recoil operated, delayed roller-locked inertial bolt system with direct blow back action
Ammunition Feed Staggered, box-type magazine; 15- and 30-round capacity. Positive round extraction.
Mechanical sights Rotary aperature rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation; Hooded post front sight
Optical sights Any telescopic sight or aiming device compatible with HK claw-lock mounts; HK PULSE BEAM laser aimers mounted on cocking tube
HK94 Weight: with A2 (fixed) stock 6.43 pounds (2.92 kg)
HK94 Weight: with A3 (collapsible) stock 7.18 pounds (3.26 kg)
Barrel length 16.54 inches(420mm)
HK94 Overall length: with A2 stock 34.59 inches (878mm)
Overall length: with A3 stock extended 34.05 inches (865mm)
Overall length: with A3 stock collapsed 27.58 inches (700mm)
Sight radius 13.39 inches (340mm)
HK94 Rifle Width 1.96 inches (50mm)
HK94 Rifle Height 8.26 inches (210mm)

 

[securityboy]

Let me jump in for a moment...

As most of you know I play almost exclusively with MG's (and the occasional Mil Surp), but at one time I had a sizable collection of semi's (but they have all been sold off to fund mg deals). I can honestly say I miss one of them, 9mm mini uzi "carbine" (always planned to chop it to an SBR, never did) Plain and simple that was a nice little gun. Didn't have a "happy switch" but I wish I still had it around...

But like I often say its all personal preferance, what I like you might not, doesn't make one thing bad or "better" just different taste that is all...

To be perfectly honest I don't get the 1911 "craze" almost every gun mag will have a flashy article about some "new" 1911 in every issue. And plenty of "us" go nuts over them...yet I don't "get it" they are all a bunch of over priced clones in my book, if you want a 1911 go buy a "real one". I have a fantastc GI US&S 1911A1 and that 60ish year old gun does its job just as good as a new one...OK I see one benefit to the clone, I'd rather see bubba "trick out" one of them than a nice real 1911...Again like I said, all personal taste, what fun would it be if everyone like the same stuff...

 

[Ray-500]

And Ray, I know nothing about the HK 94, but I did find this:

GSG, thank you for the link, but what I was asking the other poster for was a personal description of why he was so fond of that model...not a listing of the specs. No offense intended.

For example, I have a favorite Kimber in .45 ACP. Its a fav because of the way it feels, functions and hits. If needed, I could give a personal description of why its one of my favs. That's what I was looking for in terms of the HK.

 

[eyesopen]

I don't put much weight on a firearm's coolness factor but I'll suggest that there's an entirely different view that can be taken on the semi-auto siblings of a full-auto rifle. Many folks buy such firearms because they are outstanding firearms for their class. I believe that the AR15 is an excellent rifle despite it's restrictive sear pin limiting it to semi.

In full disclosure I own an SL8 which is the civilianized version of the German Armies G36 - a full auto. With the match-quality hexagonal barrel, piston design and overall outstanding build quality I bought it on it's own merits with no consideration to the G36. I also own a USC - similarly a civ version of the German FA UMP - and in .45 it is a blast to shoot. Many folks have shot it and can attest to it's being just way too much fun. Outstanding durable lightweight design, can withstand an elements, great barrel (for a carbine shooting .45), but really...the USC is about being fun to shoot.

One final point of disclosure - I have had the pleasure of shooting both MassMark's Uzi and Fooped's HK94 recently so they may have brainwashed me while I fired and smiled.

In defense of those that feel the connection between their SA and the FA version I think are reasons beyond a latent mall-ninja desire. One can hold an M1A and think about the trenches in which it's sisters were being used, hold a Tommy gun and think of Chicago and how that time shaped America. (Apologies to Milsurp for not coming up with better examples but you get the idea). Similarly one can hold a SA Uzi or HK94 and feel and recall the history - without taking a shot, let alone be concerned about it's rate of fire.

So to the question of why, I suppose my answer in short is b/c it may be an outstanding firearm in it's own right or have a history with which one wishes to connect

It's a good question Bill - glad for the chance to answer it. If you see me at a shoot please come on up and try one of them - just be prepared to grin after you pull the trigger. <smile>

 

[Franco]

have a GSG-5 and a 9mm hk94 clone signed by Ted Nugent. i find them both a hoot to shoot. both are light weight and cheap to shoot!

the proprietary delayed roller lock system(on the HK and clones) makes the 9mm platform a very accurate carbine.

 

[MassMark]

Here's my take on the Uzi and no - I'm not "locked into it". I need not justify the expense for the benefit of myself and my preferences. I didn't spend, therefore I must justify. At 43, I have had a passion for this firearm since 1986 - it was my second semi-automatic military firearm after the purchase of an HK93A2. Of all the guns I bought and sold through the years, it was one of my biggest regrets. I sold my original Uzi to help fund a 5-month excursion to Africa and though I would do it again, it would not be without a sense of loss...

The Uzi is a robust, accurate and reliable firearm. Everything about it to me just functions. From the mechanics of the folding stock, to the location of the magwell, (instinctive), to the simple takedown, (zero tools - even to remove the barrel), to the sights - the gun was designed to work. It's not as light as the HK94 - in fact, for a pistol caliber carbine, it's pretty heavy. The weight however adds to the smooth function, negligible recoil, accurate follow-ups and accuracy overall. Sending a 9mm pistol cartridge into tight 3-4" groups at 100-yards defies logic - flipping up the rear sight to '2' and doing it at 200-yards seems to defy physics. The Uzi will also munch just about anything you feed it. I spend one range day shooting WWB - another shooting a mix of reloads and Speer 124gr +P Gold Dots. No fancy rails, no lights, no bolt hold open, no red-dots, no frills, (unless you're creative) - it's a shooters gun and is laced with a sense of history each time you pull the trigger.

It's not for everyone, but it is ideal for those who appreciate the fore-mentioned...

 

[Ray-500]

To be perfectly honest I don't get the 1911 "craze" almost every gun mag will have a flashy article about some "new" 1911 in every issue. And plenty of "us" go nuts over them...yet I don't "get it" they are all a bunch of over priced clones in my book, if you want a 1911 go buy a "real one". I have a fantastc GI US&S 1911A1 and that 60ish year old gun does its job just as good as a new one...OK I see one benefit to the clone, I'd rather see bubba "trick out" one of them than a nice real 1911...Again like I said, all personal taste, what fun would it be if everyone like the same stuff...

Grin, I don't think its a "craze", for me its a matter of form and function. Many moons ago when I went through the MP Academy at Ft. Gordon, the 1911 had to be known inside and out. The "rack" weapons we used could literally be dropped in mud and still function. However, that said nothing for accuracy. Matter of fact, the day I eventually qualified for "record", it was almost a monsoon. No problem with function at all, my piece fired every shot. "Bullseye" accuracy at 25 yards was another matter. The slim sights and ultra loose fit would not cut it in a match....but it was OK for qual. purposes.

I think most folks today are looking for the accuracy as well as the design and function of the 1911. Its not just a question of "getting" a 1911. At least thats what I think.

 

[eyesopen]

MassMark you're description of the Uzi is making me teary...I wanna go out and buy an IMI. I'll have to add that to the list with the mini14 that you're forcing me into buying like a carriage horse following a carrot.

 

[Fooped]

Of course you can. It can be described with weight, handling, feel in the hand, sights, trigger, reaction to various ammo....etc.etc. Don't understand why a "favorite" cannot be described...or the reluctance to do so.

Well honestly, this is like being asked to describe why a Ferrari is such a fantastic automobile to someone who's never seen one.

It just can't (and really shouldn't) be done. You've simply got to see one and shoot it for yourself. Or, go to this link and read up on it.


www.hkpro.com

That being said, it is not a gun for the uninitiated; They are selling riight now between 4300.00 to 5000.00 dependent on condition, and having been increasing in price by about 20% each year. There are only about 8,000 left in the civilian market (of the original ~15,000 that were imported). The remainder have either been converted to FA, or are in the hands of various LE agencies.

I recently dropped some SERIOUS coin on mine, along with the factory HK "K" grip, barrel shroud and pre-ban 72-round drum.

 

[GSG]

GSG, thank you for the link, but what I was asking the other poster for was a personal description of why he was so fond of that model...not a listing of the specs. No offense intended.

For example, I have a favorite Kimber in .45 ACP. Its a fav because of the way it feels, functions and hits. If needed, I could give a personal description of why its one of my favs. That's what I was looking for in terms of the HK.

I saw you asked about the weight and everything, so I responded.

 

[vellnueve]

Well honestly, this is like being asked to describe why a Ferrari is such a fantastic automobile to someone who's never seen one.

Exactly.

Not to rub it in, but when my dad bought his, it cost him something like $450... and it's still in excellent condition. It's my first choice to take out to the range whenever I'm back home.

 

[MasterShinken]

I like the idea of the gsg's and such as it allows for a very cheap solution to practicing tactics. also they're fun to shoot. just kinda look cool, same reason you would buy any other gun, it's fun, cool looking and does what your looking for

 

[fubar]

I have a semi auto Thompson tm-1. It weighs something like 40 pounds , the length of pull is a bit long. It does have sights ...sort of. It's at least 2 inches longer than my Bushmaster. For a huge steel beast it only boosts the 45 pistol round maybe 150 fps. ...

There is NO logical argument for me to have it.

Except it's so damn fun to shoot. I like fun more than logic when I am free to go play.

 

[fubar]

 

[Raoul Duke]

If you really want to cry ask MassMark about some of the full-auto firearms he's had. I had the pleasure of discussing them one evening while driving back from a boys day out sorta day and I swear I was about ready to fire up the internets and find that time machine I've been looking for. It's like being a Pink Floyd fan and finding out the guy next to you caught most of the first Dark Side of the Moon Tour for $4.50/ticket...

 

[EddieCoyle]

I've had several and sold them off over time. No more semi subguns for me.

 

[seanc]

I've had several and sold them off over time. No more semi subguns for me.

Me niether.. But I have owned quite a lot of them over the years.. My 94 became my mp5. But, there are a few guns out there that I really like and they were just plain fun.

I'd really like to grab a semi PPSh or an m1carbine.

You could easily make the arguement that an M1 carbine easily falls into the genre of goodies as well..

 

[z0mbi]

Is anyone else left cold by these things or is it just me?

I understand your point, but are you really asking people to justify their gun ownership based on some sort of standard of usability or utility? Really?

 

[seanc]

The more I think of it. The more I think the real question being asked is are pistol caliber carbines useful or not?

realistically, a 9mm or a 45 carbine is going to act pretty much the same regardless of if it comes out of something that looks like an Uzi, A tommy, a ranch rifle or a beretta storm or even a lever action..

Aesthics aside, not a lot of difference here other than it comes down to personal preference of what the thing looks like..

 

[lowbuckbob]

I find it surprising that we, as fellow gun owners, would question the practicality or suitability of any gun we own. This sort of rhetoric borders dangerously on the "no sporting purpose" rant of the anti gunners. Own whatever you want for whatever reason you want (as long as it's not criminal).

 

[Ninsho]

Just to address the purpose part of the initial post (not that you need a reason for a gun).

If you are worried about over penetration a pistol caliber carbine in .45 with hollowpoints will do a lot better for you in this regard than anything in .223/5.56.

I don't own any yet, but there are a few on my list for when I strike it rich... or have had enough time to make it that far down my list.

 

[Fooped]

I find it surprising that we, as fellow gun owners, would question the practicality or suitability of any gun we own. This sort of rhetoric borders dangerously on the "no sporting purpose" rant of the anti gunners. Own whatever you want for whatever reason you want (as long as it's not criminal).

Damn straight.

These threads smack of "Why would you/anyone need that?"

And I don't dig them at all.


And yes, Bill, you are in the minority of gun owners/fans that are "left cold" by semi auto subguns. I literally have a crowd around my table at the shoots every time when I bring them.

 

[MassMark]

I literally have a crowd around my table at the shoots every time when I bring them.

The "box-o-guns" doesn't hurth either...

I'm in the same boat at the shoots. I bring a .50BMG ammo can full of loaded mags and leave with it full of empty mags...People seem to like it...

 

[MassMark]

you win.

 

[TomH]

I agree, don't see the point or appeal personally. I could see them as a collector's piece but not as a very fun shooter. Sub guns have a very specific design for close quarters large volume of fire. Take away the fire and it is just a heavy semi pistol IMO.

 

[MassMark]

I agree, don't see the point or appeal personally. I could see them as a collector's piece but not as a very fun shooter. Sub guns have a very specific design for close quarters large volume of fire. Take away the fire and it is just a heavy semi pistol IMO.

Yup a heavy semi-auto pistol with rifle accuracy, compact size and a 25-70 round magazine that everyone seems to want to shoot anyway...What was I thinking?

 

[drgrant]

I find it surprising that we, as fellow gun owners, would question the practicality or suitability of any gun we own. This sort of rhetoric borders dangerously on the "no sporting purpose" rant of the anti gunners. Own whatever you want for whatever reason you want (as long as it's not criminal).

I think some of you guys took his post a little too seriously.

"Not Interested" or "Left cold/bored" does not = "should be banned" or "has no reason to exist" etc.

For example, I think the FN FiveSeven is a worthless POS, but I'll gladly defend someone's right to own one. If someone likes it, more power
to them. The most important thing is that you like whatever it is you bought.

"Different strokes for different folks. "

ETA: I'd probably own several PCCs if I had money just lying around. The main reason I don't own one right now is I don't think I would shoot it
enough to justify spending what limited cash I do have for new guns... I still don't think I could ever bring myself to buy a FiveSeven, PS90,
or a Glock in .45 GAP., though...

-Mike

 

[seanc]

For example, I think the FN FiveSeven is a worthless POS,
"Different strokes for different folks. "

ETA: I'd probably own several PCCs if I had money just lying around. I still don't think I could ever bring myself to buy a FiveSeven, PS90,
or a Glock in .45 GAP., though...

-Mike

Oops. I lied.. I do own a ps90.. And absolutely love it.. Probably one of the most fun guns I have owned and shot in years..

 

[Ninsho]

Oh, and for the record - this thread title looks like a group buy feeler.

If so I'm in.

 

[Fooped]

I might just start a "Show me your semi-auto subguns" thread in the Gun Gallery!