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I know, I jsut think the glock is a gun that looks more well put together. Yours shoots nicely, but that is because of that trigger job. Even with a 10lb glock, I liked the glock over the stock MP.
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What glock should I buy?
- Thread starter Youradolt
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I know, I jsut think the glock is a gun that looks more well put together. Yours shoots nicely, but that is because of that trigger job. Even with a 10lb glock, I liked the glock over the stock MP.
yes, it is unfortunate they break every m&p on the way out the factory with those stupid triggers. but then again at least you're not buying a 11+ yr old glock unless you can get one FTF. IMO if you want to compare M&P and glock, get two brand new "Free state" ones. But to each his/her own
G26 for reasons offered earlier. I really like 9mm Glocks, but can't seem to get excited about them in any other caliber. In .45, a 1911, Sig 220, or M&P45 seem somehow more appropriate to me. I don't shoot .357 Sig, but if I were going to start, I would get a Sig - for carry make that a Sig 239. All subjective and biased, I admit, but it is a poll.
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agreed.
I have G23,G26,G27,G30 and i carry one or another every other time but by far my favorites are all of them. ![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I also like to carry my H&K USP 45 Compact. Out all the Glocks i prefer G30 I like to have 10 rounds of 45 acp. But G26 or G27 will be more easy to hide... even in the summer.![[laugh2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/014.gif "Laugh at above [laugh2]")
I also like to carry my H&K USP 45 Compact. Out all the Glocks i prefer G30 I like to have 10 rounds of 45 acp. But G26 or G27 will be more easy to hide... even in the summer.Mark from MA
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I give the nod to the 30SF....ten rounds of 45 in a decently small package. Its what I carry so I'm biased......36 would be better for year round concealability, as would the 26/33.
If your unsure...buy all four to stop the confusion......![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
If your unsure...buy all four to stop the confusion......
I give the nod to the 30SF....ten rounds of 45 in a decently small package. Its what I carry so I'm biased......36 would be better for year round concealability, as would the 26/33.
If your unsure...buy all four to stop the confusion......
This is usually always the answer
there should be a G23 in the poll
Don't. Better they bleed from two holes than one.
I disagree with you for one reason in particular. The advantage of the .357 SIG round is the speed that it throws a bullet at. Out of a G33, 125 grain factory ammo will probably be moving at about 1250-1300 fps, max. Out of a G26, 125 grain +p+ 9mm is moving just slightly slower than that, somewhere around 1150 or 1200 fps.
I'm a huge fan of .357 SIG, but if you want it to work like the wunderkind round that it is, the smallest Glock you'd want to shoot it out of is the 4 inch barrel of a G32. The 4.5 inch G31 barrel is where .357 SIG really outshines the other calibers. If the OP already had a .357 SIG Glock then it would make sense to buy a G33 for ammo/mag compatability, but since the OP already has a 9mm Glock they'd get very little gain out of a G33.
With the G26, they could shoot cheap target ammo all they wanted, or load up with some hot +p+ that performs nearly the same as .357 SIG out of such a short barrel.
JMO.
DickWanner
Banned
Shooting my 6" .357sig barrel in my G24 makes me feel like I'm shooting a hand held rifle
I love my G29, but I will have to admit it's been sitting in the safe recently while I've been carrying my PF-9. It's just too small and easy to carry not to! Out of those choices though, I'd have to lean towards either the 30SF or the 26 depending on your method of carry. I've never fired one, but I hear the 36 can be quite a handful. YMMV though on that one.
Any caliber worth carrying might overpenetrate. It's just part of the deal. The 10mm can be mild or abusive, it all depends on the ammo you feed it, and the size of your hands.
-Mike
but the issue with over penetration may be the innocent bystander the bullet hits after exiting the bad guy.
Mike, what do you think of Mas Ayoob's position on 10mm/large caliber? Do you think someone can justify carrying a 10mm while most LE carries a smaller/less powerful round?
DickWanner
Banned
After it's torn through both sides of a BG a handgun bullet really doesn't have much energy left. And if you get nailed to the wall over what round you're carrying you need to fire your lawyer and get a better one.
Doesn't mean you should wake up in the morning and say "hey, if shit happens today let me do everything possible to put my lawyers kids through college and make this one hell of an ordeal." Can eliminate arguable issues should shit happen relatively easily. Of course, a good lawyer and some expert witnesses will sort it out, but it will set you back some $ and time...
As far as over penetration, you own the bullets you send downrange, what/who they hit, what/who they go through, and where or in who they land. Its worth thinking about for more than just two seconds, and looking at NYPD SOP-9 and their issues of hitting bystanders after the bullet traveled through the bad guy, and then take into account the difference between ammo and P&P's when the report was made and modern ammo & P&Ps. If you get Guns & Ammo, in the 2010 Handguns Annual Mas Ayoob has a decent piece entitled "Court Issues and Armed Citizen Self-Defense."
DickWanner
Banned
It's obvious you've already made up your mind, so why did you bother to ask for opinions? As fas as Ayoob goes, that guy does spew some stinky B.S. from time to time.
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Ive read the article, and I will still be carrying 10MM on my hip.
I'm no expert and I'm always looking to see if others have concurring or contradicting evidence, cases, etc. And Ayoob, yes I agree he needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but his articles are a good springboard for thought and analysis of the underlying cases and shooting incidents, etc. I'm not closing my ears to opinions if they can be justified.
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at the very least, he gives you something to think about, regardless of final opinion (obviously, you know my stance on it) which is better than most will give you
Agreed. Whether you agree with his argument or not, you should at least think about the things he discusses before you're involved in an incident.
It also seems that caliber choice seems to be a touchy subject among those that carry in self defense... I don't mean to knock any calibers (although Ayoob might). I am fairly certain that after a shoot one of the inevitable "explanations" is justifying why you shot and justifying your gear, in potentially both a criminal and civil matter. I am curious how the large powerful caliber (10mm as an ex) will justify their gear to the DA or civil jury post incident.
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
DickWanner
Banned
Okay, I'll agree with you and give you that much. I'm still going to carry my 10mm though regardless of what LE carries. As far as overpenetration, if there is anyone anywhere behind the BG you shouldn't be firing anyways. Anything else is going to be a situation judgement call.
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I think Mas makes money overstating corner cases for a living, because it makes for good fodder in the gun rags-otherwise, what else would he have to talk about? This isn't even a barb against Mas, really, it's just the reality of gun rags. There are lots of good writers in gun rags, but they're forced to sell their soul for the sake of pushing the product. (Have you ever read a review where someone was highly critical of the firearm being tested?) How many cases have been definitively thrown for the worse because of the caliber in play? People will bring up Harold Fish, but if one bothers to read all the info on Fish's case, it's easy to see why the jury sent him to jail at the time. (I'm not saying the guy deserved this, but rather, he did a lot of things which made it a LOT easier for the prosecution to secure a conviction. )
The caliber someone uses will not make or break them in court. If your defense attorney is so poor that they let the prosecutor get away with braying and whining about the caliber of your firearm unchecked, you are probably going to jail anyways, whether your gun was a .22LR or a .44 Magnum.
-Mike
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To the OP, check around at yard sales & pawn shops, find yourself a Glock 25 or 28 for $500, then post it on Gunbroker with a starting bid of $6,000 or so...that's which Glock you should buy. When I find one, that's what I'll do.
I've shot one, the recoil wasn't that bad, but your G29 felt worse when I shot it, but even that was very manageable for me.
I've never heard of a case where it happened, not even in the 60's & 70's when PD's used the "super-velocity" ball ammo. I'm aware of a couple of shootings involving fat guys where JHP's didn't stop the fight for lack of penetration to vitals, not to mention the Miami shootout where the non-fat guy Platt took a 9mm from the side that stopped just short of his heart. I'm not saying it's impossible, but all the data I've seen makes penetration look like a very good thing.
There's plenty of PD's in the US that issue the 10mm to every officer, even more who have it on their approved list.
Caliber matters little to me in handguns. A gun is a gun, and the difference in size and power (and much more importantly IMO, actual street results) between most common calibers is very small.
Where I live (Florida), if the shoot or other use of force is justified legally, I'm immune from arrest, prosecution, and civil suit related to the incident. But even if I wasn't, I've never heard of ammo selection or other factors coming up in a clean shoot. The cop in Florida who accidentally executed a kid in a pool hall while arresting him with his gun cocked (against dept. policy), Harold Fish & his 10mm vs. angry guy in the woods, school shooters and "evil high capacity magazines," those are all great examples of people doing the wrong thing. If you know of a clean shoot where a civilian with a modified or uber-powerful gun got in trouble, I'd love to see it. I never have, but I've read about plenty of shootings where the gun wasn't powerful enough and the good guy got badly hurt or killed, like the Trooper Mark Coates shooting, the Peter Soulis incident, and plenty of people who've taken handgun rounds to the head or elsewhere in gunfights who kept fighting and survived after.
I don't doubt that some red town CLEO in Mass. might eventually decide to find someone unsuitable over caliber selection or other BS. It wouldn't surprise me to hear it, but I never have, and again, if the shoot is clean, it shouldn't ever come up.
Yup. He made a lot of errors, read the transcripts of his statements to detectives.
When I find one, that's what I'll do.I've shot one, the recoil wasn't that bad, but your G29 felt worse when I shot it, but even that was very manageable for me.
I've never heard of a case where it happened, not even in the 60's & 70's when PD's used the "super-velocity" ball ammo. I'm aware of a couple of shootings involving fat guys where JHP's didn't stop the fight for lack of penetration to vitals, not to mention the Miami shootout where the non-fat guy Platt took a 9mm from the side that stopped just short of his heart. I'm not saying it's impossible, but all the data I've seen makes penetration look like a very good thing.
There's plenty of PD's in the US that issue the 10mm to every officer, even more who have it on their approved list.
Caliber matters little to me in handguns. A gun is a gun, and the difference in size and power (and much more importantly IMO, actual street results) between most common calibers is very small.
Where I live (Florida), if the shoot or other use of force is justified legally, I'm immune from arrest, prosecution, and civil suit related to the incident. But even if I wasn't, I've never heard of ammo selection or other factors coming up in a clean shoot. The cop in Florida who accidentally executed a kid in a pool hall while arresting him with his gun cocked (against dept. policy), Harold Fish & his 10mm vs. angry guy in the woods, school shooters and "evil high capacity magazines," those are all great examples of people doing the wrong thing. If you know of a clean shoot where a civilian with a modified or uber-powerful gun got in trouble, I'd love to see it. I never have, but I've read about plenty of shootings where the gun wasn't powerful enough and the good guy got badly hurt or killed, like the Trooper Mark Coates shooting, the Peter Soulis incident, and plenty of people who've taken handgun rounds to the head or elsewhere in gunfights who kept fighting and survived after.
I don't doubt that some red town CLEO in Mass. might eventually decide to find someone unsuitable over caliber selection or other BS. It wouldn't surprise me to hear it, but I never have, and again, if the shoot is clean, it shouldn't ever come up.
Yup. He made a lot of errors, read the transcripts of his statements to detectives.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/n...tart-using-deadlier-bullets.html?pagewanted=2
Granted, thats with FMJ ammo, NYPD, and 1995, but that doesn't mean its a moot point in 2010, but take it for what its worth and adjust with current data accordingly.
Which agencies? Just curious... I'd ask if you know of any in our area (MA) but it looks like you're in FL?
I'll have to get back to you on cases where there was a clean shot. I can't show you a case off the top of my head with the research I've done to date. As far as Soulis and Coates, you do make a good point.
I think we should all learn from the Fish case and do our best to make it not at all easier for the prosecution by removing as many as possible arguable issues. After an incident you will go through hell, why make the hell worse? A competent defense attorney will make sure you don't go to jail, but you can avoid drawing out the ordeal and dragging your ass through the mud just over these issues. And then the civil trial... which you'll probably win but will still cost you. Now I'm also not saying that people shouldn't carry if they're worried about the legal ramifications, I'm just trying to advocate that people be aware of the most extreme possibilities, should something happen that requires deadly force, that you get some nitwit prosecutor, that you kill some kid "on the rebound" in self defense, etc. Should you make the conscious decision to carry cocked and locked with a large caliber you've made a rational choice once you've though about these arguable issues, and then you should have a means in which to rationalize and justify what you did and what you carry.
DickWanner
Banned
Listen, all BS aside it's pretty simple. Carry the biggest gun you can conceal, in the biggest caliber with the hottest rounds you can shoot accurately, keep your mouth shut if anything should happen, and have a competent and experienced lawyer on speed dial. It's like the basic safety rules, follow those simple 4 rules and everything else is just unneccessary babble.
You apparently completely missed the core problem in the Fish case- and that was that he ran his mouth to the police, and set up a scenario where the prosecution was able to dragon punch him because of the inconsistency of his testimony. He was the only witness- and the way he was portrayed was as an unreliable one. Once a jury sees a witness (even if it is the defendant) as being unreliable, they basically ignore everything he says. Then after that point, all they ruled on was based on whatever other physical evidence the prosecution brought to bear. His one opportunity to explain his actions and exonerate himself was effectively off the table, because his veracity as a witness was destroyed. Bad witnesses and inconsistent testimony are a very powerful thing- as it makes the jury extremely unlikely to trust the quality of that evidence, and even disregard it completely. I cannot overstate this enough. I've seen what happens before with my own eyes and ears when a Jury does not trust a witness.
On the other hand, the ayoob glue sniffer crowd is always going "10mm is bad because one of the jurors said so" but I really don't see that as an overriding factor in this case, especially not when you look at the whole thing. The prosecution was basically allowed to "write the story" and get away with trampling Fish's- and the Jury bought that, hook line and sinker. There are other factors involved in Fish's case, as well (EG, like the fact that the court did not allow the defense to present evidence indicating Kuenzli was a violent a**h***) but I'm not going to suck up the whole thread discussing them. (This is probably the third or fourth time it's been brought up on NES. ) The summary version, though, is the bulk of what happened to Mr. Fish had little to nothing to do with what kind of gun he was carrying that day.
IMO if anyone is ever involved in an SD shooting, "what gun you were carrying" and what caliber it was chambered in, is not going to be a big deal in the grand scheme of things. It's not worth worrying about compared to a whole bunch of other things which could come into play. Cursory examination of many SD shooting incidents proves this out pretty well. Most of the trials end up focusing on the justification aspect of the shooting, and whether or not the shooter was legally justified in using deadly force or not- not grandiose tales of ayoob glue fume acid trips involving caliber selection, trigger pull weight, and whether or not a revolver could be cocked into single action.
-Mike
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I thought that part of the Fish case was apparent, and like you said, beaten to death and wasn't worth rehashing. Therefore, I limited my comments to the discussion at hand.
As far as "what and why" of your gear - I'm thinking it may play a bigger part in a civil case post-incident rather than criminal. I hope that most prosecutors interest in a justified shooters gear is passing, but maybe I'm more cynical than most. I don't think it would be an issue in most states, but here in MA I think that SD shooting will be used to press an agenda, and someone who wants to make a name for themselves as being tough on guns (or whatever crap) may press these non-issues. But who knows...
As far as "what and why" of your gear - I'm thinking it may play a bigger part in a civil case post-incident rather than criminal. I hope that most prosecutors interest in a justified shooters gear is passing, but maybe I'm more cynical than most. I don't think it would be an issue in most states, but here in MA I think that SD shooting will be used to press an agenda, and someone who wants to make a name for themselves as being tough on guns (or whatever crap) may press these non-issues. But who knows...
