What Cartridge should I get - New to Long range shooting

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John35y

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So another week another question [rolleyes]

My ranger buddy has started to introduce me to long range shooting (falling in love with it). Now my MP 15-22 .22lr has about an effective range of about 200 yards so I'm already starting to max out on precision at higher ranges (not to mention a little bit of windage screws up the .22lr a lot [sad2]).

So I'm in the market for a new gun! (my gf will not be happy about this [thinking])

A few facts that will help whittle down what I'm looking for:
* I'm not a hunter just looking to shoot plates and paper at ranges
*I'd most likely be shooting around 600 yards but would like a riffle that is capable of hitting 1000 - 1100 yards.
* Have the resources to buy a nice scope.
*As I am new to long range shooting I would like something I can practice with and won't break the ammo piggy bank.

This leads me to two cartridges:
1) .308 Winchester - Estimate: .455 BC and max supersonic range of 1100 yards (cheap.... Did I mention how cheap this ammo is)
2) 30-06 Springfield - Estimate: .502 BC and max supersonic range of 1200 yards (this cartridge is more expensive in terms of ammo costs at $1.5 - $2 per shot but will not break the ammo bank and gives a little more oomf under ideal circumstances)

My initial reaction was to go with the .308 Winchester, but looking into it further the Army has the effective range of the .308 to be 800 yards. I think this relates to combat situations and the amount of energy left at 800 yard to immobilize targets.

So in my situation of just shooting paper the .308 should still be accurate at 1000 yards? Just wanted to get others take before I start researching different .308 riffles to buy :).
 
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John35y said:
*I'd most likely be shooting around 600 yards but would like a riffle that is capable of hitting 1000 - 1100 yards.

*As I am new to long range shooting I would like something I can practice with and won't break the ammo piggy bank.
Click to expand...


.308

relatively cheap
plenty powerful
tons of ammo choices
pleasant to shoot
many rifles to pick from
 
Don't do the 30-06. It gets you very little performance over the .308 but requires a long action and the accuracy lore says shorter, fatter cartridges are more accurate.

If your interest is in paper and plates you don't need a 30cal. One of the most important thing in long range shooting is using a long, very low drag bullet. I've been out of it for a while, but some of the best were 6mm. If you can reload, and that's the best way to get the most accuracy out of your gun, consider one of the 6mm or 6.5mm cartridges (like the Creedmore mentioned above). The 6BR and 6XC are outstandingly accurate cartridges. Even the good old 243 makes a great long range cartridge.

6mmbr.com has a wealth of information.
 
If I had the money and lived close to a 600-1000 yard range (well Reading is only 30 minutes from me but Granby is a hike), I would buy a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 creedmor in a heartbeat. I reload so 6.5 wouldn't hit the wallet all that badly.
 
.308. But if you reload, then .260 or 6.5 creedmoor.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
andrew1220 said:
If I had the money and lived close to a 600-1000 yard range (well Reading is only 30 minutes from me but Granby is a hike), I would buy a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 creedmor in a heartbeat. I reload so 6.5 wouldn't hit the wallet all that badly.
Click to expand...

I tell you what, buddy.....I don't mind making the drive to a longer range, so I'll let you go ahead and buy me a Ruger Precision Rifle. I'll even let you shoot it occasionally. [smile]

6.5 Creedmoor or .308 are the cartridges of choice for 600 yards or so these days. 6.5 Grendel has a good reputation, too, but I don't know of any company other than Howa making bolt actions in it. If you have a "pre-pre-ban AR", you could always look into an upper for it.
 
John35y said:
So another week another question [rolleyes]

My ranger buddy has started to introduce me to long range shooting (falling in love with it). Now my MP 15-22 .22lr has about an effective range of about 200 yards so I'm already starting to max out on precision at higher ranges (not to mention a little bit of windage screws up the .22lr a lot [sad2]).

So I'm in the market for a new gun! (my gf will not be happy about this [thinking])

A few facts that will help whittle down what I'm looking for:
* I'm not a hunter just looking to shoot plates and paper at ranges
*I'd most likely be shooting around 600 yards but would like a riffle that is capable of hitting 1000 - 1100 yards.
* Have the resources to buy a nice scope.
*As I am new to long range shooting I would like something I can practice with and won't break the ammo piggy bank.

This leads me to two cartridges:
1) .308 Winchester - Estimate: .455 BC and max supersonic range of 1100 yards (cheap.... Did I mention how cheap this ammo is)
2) 30-06 Springfield - Estimate: .502 BC and max supersonic range of 1200 yards (this cartridge is more expensive in terms of ammo costs at $1.5 - $2 per shot but will not break the ammo bank and gives a little more oomf under ideal circumstances)

My initial reaction was to go with the .308 Winchester, but looking into it further the Army has the effective range of the .308 to be 800 yards. I think this relates to combat situations and the amount of energy left at 800 yard to immobilize targets.

So in my situation of just shooting paper the .308 should still be accurate at 1000 yards? Just wanted to get others take before I start researching different .308 riffles to buy :).
Click to expand...


(1) Lots of people shoot .308 for long range, but it's usually because they want to shoot in the Palma category so they basically have to. (This includes the Army Palma team.) You really have to stay on top of the wind because it gets blown around a lot but if you're really good (or if there's no wind) then you can win matches with it - you'll just have to work harder because it's not forgiving. With that said, most people who aren't shooting Palma go with a different caliber that will cut through the wind a bit better.

(2) I don't know of anyone who's serious about shooting long range who shoots a .30-06. Maybe just for fun but not if you really care about shooting well.

Also, 600 yards isn't generally considered "long range." A heavy .223 bullet will shoot just fine at 600, as would any of the slower 6mm cartridges (BR, Hagar, etc.)
 
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Unless you're going to be serious about competitions, I wouldn't get too hung up on finding the optimum cartridge. Besides, unless all the top level competitors are shooting the same cartridge, there is no perfect answer.

Jasons' comments about the .308 and wind are right on, especially when he says "...a different caliber that will cut through the wind a bit better." A hotter cartridge than the .308 will reduce wind effects some, but you're not going to see a 2:1 reduction in wind effects by picking a different cartridge. If this is for learning, the .308 may be perfect for you. It will demand better reading of the wind and knowing you elevation dope than hotter cartridges that will hide your mistakes better.

For context, when I lived in CA and used to compete in a match that started at 200y and progressed out to 1,000y, a few times I brought my scoped, sporterized 30-40Krag! I shot the same 30cal 175gr Sierra MatchKing bullet that all the .308 guys used, but my muzzle velocity was only 2,400'/s. I was subsonic by 800y but could still keep it on paper (most of the time) at 1,000y. I beat only about 25% of the competitors, but those I beat were pretty embarrassed and I had a lot of fun.
 
The big unanswered question is "do you handload"

If no, get a .223, .308, 6.5 Creedmoor. You can get match grade ammo for them at a well stocked gun shop. Not cheap.

If yes, none of the above are wrong, but we can add a lot to the list. Again, not cheap.


No matter what you do, accurate target shooting puts a big hurt on your wallet.
 
Nice to see you shooting your 22lr out to 200 yards. I have a lot of fun shooting my old rem 513T at 200 yards. Soon we hope to start a local rim fire F Class tactical match at 100 and 200 yards...

I am making the progression to shooting scoped and at distance.
I'm starting with a 223 AR. Although my first outing at 600 with my AR and scope was worse than my first time out with irons. I won't be stopping.

I have been thinking of what to get in a bolt gun. Since I won't be competing on a serious level I'm thinking 308. Mostly because it's one of the cheapest "accurate" rounds.
Also there are a larger selection of rifles in the "affordable" range that can deliver fun results... 600 yards will be my most common distance for the for seeable future so that will be my focus with a hope to get out beyound that some day.
 
Ease into it with a high-quality, bull-barrelled AR upper, a nice trigger, and a nice piece of glass.

Work fundamentals, start reloading (which will quickly pay for itself), master 600 yard shooting, outgrow the upper, sell it, and transition into a precision bolt gun.
 
.300 WinMag. I don't do much long range work, but I've wasted plenty of time researching long range ballistics to say don't go with .308. It's nice because it's cheap and available, but the advantages stop there.
 
I love my 300 Win Mag. Ammo is a pleasure to reload and you can get all the brass you want from Wal-Mart. I get it for 25 bucks for the Federal 180gr. I'm still using the brass from the first 3 boxes I bought from Wal-Mart. I fire form my brass and only neck the brass when reloading. Bolt action of course semi auto, though I've never seen one, you have to fully size the brass. The 300wm shoots .308 bullets so anything you want in that category.
 
Watch out for the 300WinMag. It's a barrel burner. I helped a friend do a chamber casting of his after about 2,000 rounds and the first 3/8" of rifling lands were gone. It was cool to see actual thought erosion.
 
Sort of related question. When people say 6.5 creed over .308, what are we talking about the group difference being at 600? Meaning not a benched gun, actual shooting results. I know this relies on the shooter heavily, but how much more "performance" are we talking about here between the two?
 
xtry51 said:
Sort of related question. When people say 6.5 creed over .308, what are we talking about the group difference being at 600? Meaning not a benched gun, actual shooting results. I know this relies on the shooter heavily, but how much more "performance" are we talking about here between the two?
Click to expand...

Good question. I don't own any rifles in either caliber but would be interested to hear what others say.
 
xtry51 said:
Sort of related question. When people say 6.5 creed over .308, what are we talking about the group difference being at 600? Meaning not a benched gun, actual shooting results. I know this relies on the shooter heavily, but how much more "performance" are we talking about here between the two?
Click to expand...


I think this is not the reason for 6.5C. Based on my research, 6.5C is actually cheaper for match ammo off the shelf, better BC, and a flatter trajectory which all translates into better ballistics at 1,000y. Adding to that are some great options for bullets when reloading that bring cost down even further.

At Cabela's on Sunday, .308 match grade was $26-30 per box while 6.5C was $19-23. I know it can be had cheaper online, this is just a small sample size in a b&m store.

ETA That doesn't mean your groups at 600y won't be smaller, I just think that its made for longer distances than that. 600y can be hit by most modern rifle cartridges with relative ease.
 
Updated: added 6.5 Creedmore

You need to spend some time with a ballistics calculator.
Here's one I've used a lot. It's really pretty simple. You put in the bullet type from the pull-down, or the ballistic coefficient if it's not on the list, plus the muzzle velocity, and use the defaults for the rest of the stuff. What you want to look at is the drop and wind drift at various distances.

Remember, the only 2 things that really matter are muzzle velocity and B.C. For drop over distance and wind drift not much else matters. This is why the 6.5mm cartridges are favored. There are some great bullets available with super big BCs.

I ran the numbers for the same Sierra 175gr HPBT MK bullet in a .308 and 300WM for 600 yards.

.308:
MV = 2,650
Drop at 600y = 16.5MOA (104")
10mph wind drift = 5.2MOA (33")

300WM:
MV = 3,000
Drop at 600y: 11.8MOA (74")
10mph wind drift = 4.1MOA (26")

6.5 Creedmore (with Sierra 142gr MK with BC = .62!)
MV = 2,800
Drop at 600y: 12.7MOA (80")
10mph wind drift = 3.5MOA (22")

The difference looks pretty dramatic, but it's not. The hardest thing in long range shooting is estimating the wind. With either gun, if you are wrong by 2mph, you'll be off center by about 6" (6.6" vs. 5.2"). A barrel burner 300WM won't fix your mistakes. They'll be just a tiny bit smaller.

The elevation difference is bigger, but that's less of a problem. Distance doesn't change like wind. Once you know the dope on your load, so long as you know the distance, you just crank the correct come-up into your scope and you're fine. I've shot 1,000y with a scoped 30-40Krag (2,400ft/s). My come-up was a crazy 48MOA (about 40'), but vertically I was on paper. The wind kicked my ass though because it keeps changing.

Here's something I think is very important. Do all your thinking in M.O.A., not inches. If you and your gun shoot 2" at 100y, that's 2 MOA. You'll still shoot 2MOA (12") at 600y (plus wind drift and elevation errors). Once you realize that at 600y 10mph of wind moves you 5MOA, having a 0.5MOA gun isn't much of an advantage over a 1.5MOA gun. Few people can read a changing wind within a few mph.

CREEDMORE: That 6.5mm bullet is amazing with a BC of 0.62. What I really can't understand is that though it's drop is almost as good as the 300WM, the wind drift is better!
If I recall correctly, the 6.5CM is not a barrel burner. The 300WM really is only good for 1,500 rounds before those sub-MOA groups start opening up.
 
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xtry51 said:
Sort of related question. When people say 6.5 creed over .308, what are we talking about the group difference being at 600? Meaning not a benched gun, actual shooting results. I know this relies on the shooter heavily, but how much more "performance" are we talking about here between the two?
Click to expand...

On a windless day, probably not much difference. But if the wind is tricky, like the quartering switchy headwinds we often see at places like Camp Perry, it makes a big difference.

Look at the midrange prone match results from this year's nationals for example. The match winner who was in the "Any Rifle" category, which means he could use pretty much any caliber he wanted (I don't know what caliber he used but my guess would be some sort of full sized 6 or 6.5 something or other,) shot a 2395-168x. That means he only dropped 5 points all week and 70% of his shots were in the X ring. (That X count alone is insane.)

The top Palma shooter, which in theory means either .308 or .223 but in practice they all shoot .308, shot a 2388-128x. In those kind of matches 7 points is a ton of points. In this case it was the difference between 1st place overall and 5th place overall.

(For what it's worth I know the guy who won the Palma category. He can hold the 10 ring or better for sure.)

And that's on a square range with wind flags and spotting scopes to help you read the wind....
 
6.5CM would be my vote now too. The cartridge is so damn good it's no wonder its popularity has skyrocketed. Even factory 6.5CM ammo now routinely shoots 1/2-1/3moa now out of a good barrel.

Another option would be to just buy a good switch barrel platform - Accuracy International's AT platform can switch a barrel out in less than 60 seconds, and .308 and 6.5CM are the same bolt face, so no further modification would be needed to get both of those calibers.
 
cockpitbob said:
Those things start a $4,300 with no scope [shocked].
Click to expand...

This is true. But, you get a match gun that's about as good as it gets without dicking around with it. I tried enhancing Rem 700 actions, upgrading the chassis', and everything else, and every time I did that I ended up spending a fortune and was miserable the whole time because I just wanted a match gun. I bought my AT end of last year, and now I spend my time shooting it, not fooling around trying to make it more accurate.

Plus, AI's switch barrel system really is the best out there right now. A Sako TRG would be another option, but you don't get the features you would with an AI.
 
You need to define what is meant by "long range shooting".
Hearing a steel target go ping or x-ring? X-ring on a paper target takes a specialized cartridge (like we've already been taking about). ANYTHING can ring steel out to whatever range you want.
 

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