-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
-
Be sure to enter the NES/MFS May Giveaway ***Canik METE SFX***
Want to get into reloading... where to start?
- Thread starter Boston-Irish
- Start date
Not in my experience. Whether it's a revolver, taking the case from a bolt-action or lever-action, or even with a brass catcher, there will almost always be powder residue and lubricant on the case.
Depends on what you mean by "necessary." As Scrivener said, all cases are going to pick up at least some powder fouling, but that's more of a cosmetic issue. The dirty cases will still reload just fine and will work through the action OK. But most reloaders I know don't like the idea of running those dirty cases through their dies, much less back into their guns, and also take a great deal of pride in the appearance of their handloads, and that means cleaning, usually with either the old-technology tumblers or with new-technology vibratory cleaners. I have one of each, and each has advantages and disadvantages. I like to clean before I start the reloading process so my dies don't get so dirty, others resize/decap first so the primer pockets also get cleaned, still others use a universal decapping die first, then clean.
I have been reading online for a couple of hours now, and the more I edumacate myself on this the more confused I become. Is that normal?
![[frown]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/003.gif "Frown [frown]")
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
With rifle rounds, where do you do the case prep -- and with what tools?
With conventional (non-carbide) dies, the case will stick to the die during resizing unless it's lubricated. Most resizing lubes are heavy greasy liquids that are applied to something that looks like a stamp pad - the cases are rolled across the pad to give them a thin layer of lube. That part isn't a big deal, but after sizing you need to remove the lube somehow and none of the various methods (hand wiping, solvent, tumbling) is easy, and all are another step in the reloading process. There's a spray-on lube that's supposed to make the whole thing easier - the only stuck case I've ever had in my life resulted from trying to use it. That stuff went right in the trash.
Straight-sided pistol cases offer the alternative of a carbide sizing ring at the mouth of the resizing die. The hard surface of the carbide (traditionally tungsten carbide, but other materials are sometimes used now) prevents sticking, so you don't need to lube the cases and therefore don't need to wipe the lube off. There are some carbide dies made for other style cases, but they're expensive. Most standard bottleneck rifle cases still require lubrication, but most handloaders don't load so many of them that the extra step is so big a problem.
Okay Dick, I think I understand. Is this problem alleviated completely with the use of carbide die sets? Are they available for rifle and pistol?
firearmfaq.com had a relatively good (and well-illustrated) tutorial on reloading, and he talks about case trimming. Can that be done on a press with a certain die, or is it always a separate process?
Yes, with the small exception noted below.
They're generally available only for straight-sided cases, which are more common in pistol calibers, but are also used for some rifle calibers (e.g, .30 Carbine, .444 Marlin). You can also get carbide dies for 9mm, which has a slight taper, but they're a bit more expensive. I believe Dillon, and perhaps others, make carbide dies at considerable extra cost for some high-volume bottleneck rifle cases such as .223 Rem, but I seem to recall they also advise lubing anyway, which would seem to defeat the purpose (I have no direct experience).
There are two common ways of case-trimming. The first involves a special die - the resized case is put up into the die and, if it needs trimming, the brass at the case mouth will extend slightly out of the top of the die, and then it's trimmed with a file. The better way involves a special tool that looks and works like a miniature lathe. It's not particularly expensive and you can find them in any reloading supply catalog. Generally, straight-sided pistol cases don't require trimming; bottleneck rifle cases will need to be trimmed every few firings because the greater pressures and the design of the case cause it to elongate when fired. It's important not to let your cases get too long because the extra length can contact the forcing cone and not allow the bullet to release properly, which raises pressures. You determine if your cases need trimming by running them through a go/no-go gauge or (better) using a caliper adjusted according to dimensions that are provided in reloading guides.
I just checked on Midway, they have a 4-die 9mm set, the sizing and factory-crimp dies are carbide -- would that be all that I need?
I know this is like asking how long a piece of string is, but how often would you say 9mm pistol cases require re-trimming? Would you see it in 10% of your cases, 40% or 75%? The reason I ask is that seemingly few "intro to reloading" articles mention it. But it's almost essential for rifle rounds, right?
I have been reading online for a couple of hours now, and the more I edumacate myself on this the more confused I become. Is that normal?
With rifle rounds, where do you do the case prep -- and with what tools?
You have to get a trimmer which looks like a small medieval device with a vice like end and a crank with a bit that takes off brass to make it the length that you need for your rifle. Every time you shoot the expansion lengthens the brass.
The de-primer I think looks the same, but pokes out the primer. And then if I'm not mistaken you have to ream out the primer hole...that's another hand held tool.
And that's just two or so steps... I don't reload rifle... But from watching buddies, that's some of the steps that they do...
Yes - the die set and the correct shellholder will get you going.
You may never need to trim them. If it were me (caveat: I load about 20 different cartridges, but not 9mm), I'd just check them with a gauge periodically and throw out any that exceed the maximum length (.7540 inches, according to my Speer manual). There's plenty of once-fired 9mm brass lying around at every range, so there's no need to "save" it by trimming, and you may find that you never need to trim anyway - I don't recall every trimming pistol brass, but I'm sure somebody somewhere has.
With regard to rifle brass, I carefully check every piece after resizing and find that I need to trim about every 4 or 5 firings. After 2 or 3 trimmings I discard the case - the brass that you're trimming has to come from somewhere, and that reduces the case thickness and, therefore, strength.
Thanks for this C-pher, it was the information I was looking for. Why is it that I can't accomplish some of these steps -- like de-priming and reaming -- with a correct set of dies on a turret press? I don't think I can figure out why...
Okay, going by the percentages you're talking about gives me some idea as to why it's not mentioned; especially when 9mm brass is plentiful enough to find. Maybe the .500S&W guys need to do it a lot more..!
If it's not too much trouble, Dick, would you be able to post your "workflow" in steps? Like this:
* clean round
* de-prime with de-priming tool
* lube with oil + cloth
* size brass with sizing tool
* charge brass on press with charge die
etc., so I can get a better idea of the steps involved and what tools are required? It would, hopefully, serve to confuse me significantly less than I am already
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
With bottleneck rifle cases only two dies are needed for reloading. Resizing, decapping, and neck expansion are all done with the first die, and the second takes care of bullet seating and crimping. Some die manufacturers vary that a little, but that procedure is pretty standard. It's not necessary to ream the primer pocket - which is a separate operation done with a small hand tool - but for real precision handloading it's recommended, along with a number of other esoteric procedures (squaring the case head in a lathe, drilling the flash hole to uniform size, neck turning, bullet spinning, and so on ad infinitum).
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Yes, .308 dies. As Dick stated, it depends on whether you are intending to reload for precision accuracy, i.e. long-range, or just for plinking and general purposes.
OK. This is my procedure for loading pistol rounds on my single-stage press. This applies to cases that headspace on the case mouth (like your 9mm or my .45 ACP):
1. Clean brass (tumbler or vibratory cleaner)
2. Resize and decap (first die - carbide)
3. Expand and slightly bell neck (second die)
4. Insert primers (I have a separate little tool for this)
5. Charge powder (from powder measure)
6. Seat bullet (third die)
7. Crimp (fourth die - taper crimp)
There may be slight differences depending on die manufacturer - some die sets decap as part of the neck expansion. If I'm loading cartridges like .38 Special that headspace on the rim, I don't need (or have) a taper crimp die - the bullet seating die is adjusted to give a roll crimp, either during the seating step or in a separate step after seating.
This is likely obvious, but you work in batches of 50 or 100 cases or more - i.e., resize them all, change dies and neck expand, change dies and seat bullets, etc. You need an inexpensive reloading block (I like the plastic ones made by MTM) to hold the brass as you work on them.
BTW, there are many books (reloading manuals and others) out there that explain all this and have photos, etc. I'm happy to provide the info, but they'd provide much more detail for you.
Last edited:
Smartflix has some really good DVDs on all types of reloading that you can rent, kind of like Netflix.
http://smartflix.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_36
The David Tubb one is great for rifle. The Brian Enos one is great for pistol. Tubb uses both a Redding single stage and a Dillon 550 progressive in his video, and Brian uses a Dillon 650 progessive.
http://smartflix.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_36
The David Tubb one is great for rifle. The Brian Enos one is great for pistol. Tubb uses both a Redding single stage and a Dillon 550 progressive in his video, and Brian uses a Dillon 650 progessive.
Just for plinking, in this case...
That's terrific, Dick, thanks! If it's not too much trouble, would you be able to tell me what steps are added where (and how) for rifle rounds? After that, I should pretty much be all set! I hope
I've been poking around my local libraries for one, but I haven't found a copy yet. I might rent a DVD, like GTO suggests.
That is true (for the most part). Cleaning is done more to keep grit off the dies. A small amount of powder residue in the case will have little or no effect on the reloaded round. In fact, when I used to shoot WinClean .38's, I didn't clean at all.
Many people are overly anal when it comes to their pistol brass. I know a few people that take great pains to make sure their brass is blindingly shiny before they'll reload it. One guy I know tumbles the finished rounds if they get dull from sitting around!
With that said, I tumble all of my brass. I have a tumbler; and it's harder to keep the revolver brass separate from the autoloader brass than it is to just dump everything into the tumbler.
Last edited:
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
My steps for competition match rifle rounds:
1) Decap brass with a universal de-capping die
2) Swage primer pockets if crimped (Only once for life time of brass
3) Uniform primer pockets (Only once for life time of brass)
4) Clean primer pockets
5) Tumble
6) Lube case mouth and body
7) Resize to appropriate deminsions
8) Trim
9) Chamfer inside case mouth
10) Debur outside case mouth
11) Unifrom and debur flash hole (Only once for life time of brass)
12) Tumble again
13) Prime with hand priming tool
14) Charge with powder (Weigh and trickle each load for 600 yards and greater)
15) Seat bullets
For general purpose rounds. steps 1, 2, 3, and 11 can be omitted.
1) Decap brass with a universal de-capping die
2) Swage primer pockets if crimped (Only once for life time of brass
3) Uniform primer pockets (Only once for life time of brass)
4) Clean primer pockets
5) Tumble
6) Lube case mouth and body
7) Resize to appropriate deminsions
8) Trim
9) Chamfer inside case mouth
10) Debur outside case mouth
11) Unifrom and debur flash hole (Only once for life time of brass)
12) Tumble again
13) Prime with hand priming tool
14) Charge with powder (Weigh and trickle each load for 600 yards and greater)
15) Seat bullets
For general purpose rounds. steps 1, 2, 3, and 11 can be omitted.
Thanks for this C-pher, it was the information I was looking for. Why is it that I can't accomplish some of these steps -- like de-priming and reaming -- with a correct set of dies on a turret press? I don't think I can figure out why...
Okay, going by the percentages you're talking about gives me some idea as to why it's not mentioned; especially when 9mm brass is plentiful enough to find. Maybe the .500S&W guys need to do it a lot more..!
If it's not too much trouble, Dick, would you be able to post your "workflow" in steps? Like this:
* clean round
* de-prime with de-priming tool
* lube with oil + cloth
* size brass with sizing tool
* charge brass on press with charge die
etc., so I can get a better idea of the steps involved and what tools are required? It would, hopefully, serve to confuse me significantly less than I am already
For bottleneck rifle cartridges:
1. Tumble, briefly, with no media (to get dirt and sand out; only done with auto rounds that have been ejected into the dirt).
2. Lube (using RCBS lube and an ink pad; lay 10-15 cases side by side on the lubed pad and roll with the back edge of open hand).
3. Size, expand and decap (one step).
4. Tumble.
5. Inspect, guage. If over-long, they go into a plastic container until I have enough that need trimming to warrant set-up time for trimmer. After trimming, I check the neck wall thickness, and if over spec, the cases are either discarded or neck reamed, depending on caliber and availability of brass.
6. Prime, charge, seat.
A couple of notes:
A. For calibers for which I have both bolt guns and autos (e.g., .223), I don't mix brass between them. The bolt gun brass starts as new and is treated with care. The auto brass is usually too nicked and chunked on the rims to pass inspection after 4-5 reloadings, and is discarded.
B. I don't load "range brass." The only exception is the bi-annual full auto qualification, where I can scoop buckets of .223. While not every round was fired by me, they were all fired in my presence, from new ammo.
C. Some military brass requires primer pocket swaging for first reload after new. This stuff is segretated until I have a couple of hundred rounds, then swaged after Step 3, tumbled, inspected and gauged, and put aside until next round of Step 6.
D. Despite what you might think, new brass needs to be gauged, sometimes trimmed, and sized.
E. While it is valid that bottleneck brass needs to be monitored for case length growth, in practice I need to do very little trimming. I suppose this is because bolt gun brass is only neck sized and auto brass is discarded for nicks and dings before it grows over spec.
F. Other posts mention primer pocket reaming (for dimensional consistency, rather than military crimp removal) and flash hole reaming (ditto). While in theory these steps will improve case dimensional consistency, and therefore reduce the ammo's contribution to group diameter, but in my experience neither step is worth the effort. (1) Apart from bench rest shooting, in my experience the contribution that flash hole variation might make to group size is minuscule compared to the contribution made by shooter technique. (2) The only rifle I benchrest is capable of shooting, consistently and so long as there isn't much wind, under 1 inch groups at 200 yards, and the brass for this gun has never had its primer pockets or flash hole reamed.
Last edited:
Rifle reloading is similar, but has a few important differences:
1. Clean brass
2. Lube
3. Resize (first die - and decap, and neck expand at the same time)
4. Remove lube (PITA)
5. Inspect case (visually first, looking for any signs of splitting or incipient case head separation, then check for length with caliper)
6. Trim if necessary and chamfer case mouth
7. Prime
8. Charge powder (I'm working at or just above recommended maximum charges with my rifles, so I carefully weigh every charge - no exceptions).
9. Seat bullet
10. Crimp (only for bullets with a crimping groove - I usually do this as a separate operation with the same die after bullet seating)
Most rifles operate at considerably higher pressures than pistols, so you want to be very careful. For example:
With regard to Step 8 - I've been doing this for a long time and know how to work up a charge to beyond the maximums given in the manuals, which are neutered a bit for liability reasons. Among other things, that involves using a high-quality micrometer (not calipers) and measuring (correctly) for case head expansion at the range with each and every round as it's fired. For now, you want to be sure never to exceed what's in the manuals, and only to work up to the max if you're duplicating the load exactly (including same brand of bullet, same primer, same brand of brass). A better procedure for plinking ammo is to use the minimum given, as long as it gives you acceptable accuracy.
With regard to Step 9 - It's important to measure for overall length (that goes for pistol cartridges as well) and duplicate exactly what's given in the manual. For rifles, there are ways of tinkering with OAL to improve accuracy, but again you need to know exactly what you're doing.
That said, the most dangerous part of handloading for rifles is probably driving to the gun shop for supplies.
Great post TonyD. I haven't started reloading for rifle yet, but I plan to start soon. I'm going to print your post and tape it up on the wall behind my bench.
While not wanting to turn Reloading 101 into an advanced course, a number of folks have mentioned neck reaming, and a couple of notes may be in order.
1. There are two ways of reducing the neck wall thickness of bottleneck cases.
2. Outside "turning" is essentially a milling operation, but I do not recommend it, for two reasons. First, the tools available to reloaders are comparatively crude, and they leave little marks (ridges and grooves) on the external neck surface. Beside looking poorly, these create the risk (at least theoretically) of reducing neck wall strength beyond my comfort point. Second, outside neck turning leaves a sharp angle at the inside neck angle and, on obturation, this is another point of potential weakness.
3. Reaming involves a trim die and a conventional reamer. Thread the die in the press and run the case up. Die seating is not important, so long as the neck is approximately equal to, and does not extend above, the top of the die. Chuck the reamer in a tap holder and insert and turn BY HAND. After removing the case, upend and tap on the bench to get all the shavings out.
4. If you are reaming cases that were manufactured for the caliber your shooting (that is to say, other than cases made by case forming), pay attention for how much metal the reamer removes. If excesssive, the case body wall may have thinned through extrusion and the case should be discarded. If the case was made by forming (such as by making .308 x 1.5 from .308 or .300 Savage), expect to remove a good deal of metal, since the new case's neck is what was formerly the old case's body wall. Formed cases need to be neck annealed after reaming.
5. In the nature of things, reaming, if done, is done after sizing and expanding. The case needs to be resized (at least neck sized) and re-expanded. The critical size dimension for bottleneck case is the inside of the neck, not the outside, yet by reaming, you've increased the neck ID.
1. There are two ways of reducing the neck wall thickness of bottleneck cases.
2. Outside "turning" is essentially a milling operation, but I do not recommend it, for two reasons. First, the tools available to reloaders are comparatively crude, and they leave little marks (ridges and grooves) on the external neck surface. Beside looking poorly, these create the risk (at least theoretically) of reducing neck wall strength beyond my comfort point. Second, outside neck turning leaves a sharp angle at the inside neck angle and, on obturation, this is another point of potential weakness.
3. Reaming involves a trim die and a conventional reamer. Thread the die in the press and run the case up. Die seating is not important, so long as the neck is approximately equal to, and does not extend above, the top of the die. Chuck the reamer in a tap holder and insert and turn BY HAND. After removing the case, upend and tap on the bench to get all the shavings out.
4. If you are reaming cases that were manufactured for the caliber your shooting (that is to say, other than cases made by case forming), pay attention for how much metal the reamer removes. If excesssive, the case body wall may have thinned through extrusion and the case should be discarded. If the case was made by forming (such as by making .308 x 1.5 from .308 or .300 Savage), expect to remove a good deal of metal, since the new case's neck is what was formerly the old case's body wall. Formed cases need to be neck annealed after reaming.
5. In the nature of things, reaming, if done, is done after sizing and expanding. The case needs to be resized (at least neck sized) and re-expanded. The critical size dimension for bottleneck case is the inside of the neck, not the outside, yet by reaming, you've increased the neck ID.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Thanks, I'm glad it helps even though it's pretty generic.
I have brass that has been loaded upwards of 10 times that still shoots knots at 300 yards. So far, the only reason I've thrown out brass is from loose primer pockets. I've yet to have a split neck. Small dings have never been a problem.
I think the biggest reason I get so much use is that I only bump the shoulder back 0.002 smaller than my chamber for my AR. Bolt rifles only need neck sized AS LONG as the brass has only been fired in YOUR chamber.
Most of the "stretch" actully comes from Full Length sizing and not from firing. And that stretch occurs from the case head just above the web. After you have a few firings on a piece of brass you can check the inside of the case with a paper clip and feel for sidewall "thinning".
It is true that the effect of stretching bottleneck cases tends to show up in case separations just above the head, and it is true that full length sizing tends to make case stretch more likely (all other things being equal), it is not the sizing itself that causes the cases to stretch, but rather what happens when you fire a full-length sized case.
The gas seal that prevents combustion gasses from migrating around the case and back into the action (and your face) results from the expansion of the case upon propellant ignition. Even before the bullet has exited the case mouth, the neck (being the thinnest walled part of the case) expands radially to contact the inside of the chamber, under the force of increasing chamber pressure. This is called "obturation."
Upon firing, depending on how deeply the case has been sized, the impact of the firing pin on the primer has pushed the case a tad forward, prior to ignition.
Before much (if any) forward bullet migration, the case obturates.
Once the bullet clears the neck, the same force that is trying to propel the bullet forward is also pushing backward on the inside of the head of the case. However, because the back parts of the case have not expanded to an equally tight contact with the chamber wall, and because by definition the OD of the back part of the case is smaller in dimension than ID of the chamber (else you wouldn't have been able to close the bolt), the only way the case can move back into contact with the breech face is either by having the neck slip or the case stretch.
Obturation prevents the neck from slipping.
The case stretches.
Good - no, great - explanation. For our new reloaders, I'd just add that lubing the inside of the case neck, usually done with ground mica (inexpensive kits are sold for doing this), can prevent much case stretching during resizing and also make the "upstroke" part of resizing (the neck expansion part) much easier. Any stretch during resizing would presumably come from the thinnest part of the case, i.e., the neck, while stretch during firing comes from just in front of the web, as you described.
Thanks, but you can find the same explanation, doubtless more elegantly stated, in any text on interior ballistics.
There have been studies that show that, in fact, the amount of neck stretching that really occurs as a result of pulling an expansion button back up the neck ranges from nil (too small to measure) to none. As I recall, the reason is that it is unlikely that there could be enough friction between the ID of the neck wall and the button to actually migrate metal and, if there were enough friction, most folks wouldn't be able to cycle the press (which, at this point in its stroke, has essentially zero mechanical advantage). Inside neck lube is more a matter of operator ease than case care.
I'm told there are cases where, in fact, people ran a case up into a die and then couldn't pull it out again. The reason is that the neck was in need of reaming and hadn't received it, and because of too thick neck walls, the expander button couldn't be pulled. The solution is as follows:
Loosen the lock ring on the expander rod.
Pull the case out with a reasonable force, and, while maintaining a reasonable force, use a screwdriver to back the rod. This should unscrew the expander button from the rod. Now back the case all the way out of the die, remove the die from the press, install a new decapper/expander, and run the case (carefully; it won't go all the way) far enough to force the new expander button DOWN through the neck. At this point, you can probably recover the old button. The case should probably be discarded.
There have been studies that show that, in fact, the amount of neck stretching that really occurs as a result of pulling an expansion button back up the neck ranges from nil (too small to measure) to none. As I recall, the reason is that it is unlikely that there could be enough friction between the ID of the neck wall and the button to actually migrate metal and, if there were enough friction, most folks wouldn't be able to cycle the press (which, at this point in its stroke, has essentially zero mechanical advantage). Inside neck lube is more a matter of operator ease than case care.
I'm told there are cases where, in fact, people ran a case up into a die and then couldn't pull it out again. The reason is that the neck was in need of reaming and hadn't received it, and because of too thick neck walls, the expander button couldn't be pulled. The solution is as follows:
Loosen the lock ring on the expander rod.
Pull the case out with a reasonable force, and, while maintaining a reasonable force, use a screwdriver to back the rod. This should unscrew the expander button from the rod. Now back the case all the way out of the die, remove the die from the press, install a new decapper/expander, and run the case (carefully; it won't go all the way) far enough to force the new expander button DOWN through the neck. At this point, you can probably recover the old button. The case should probably be discarded.
