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VFW Wants New Medal Ranked Lower

Gidge

Gidge

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Barely 24 hours after the Pentagon announced its new medal for cyber warriors and drone pilots, the Veterans of Foreign Wars is demanding the decoration's ranking be lowered.

The Distinguished Warfare Medal is ranked above both the Bronze Star with Combat "V" and the Purple Heart – medals typically awarded for combat in which the servicemember's life is at risk.

Read more: VFW Wants New Medal Ranked Lower | Military.com
 
Hamtramck said:
How can killing someone by remote control from a safe zone be considered
distinguished ?
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the VFW and in fact see little use for this new decoration. I really think that the MSM or perhaps a BS without a V device might be appropriate, however one can make the argument that high altitude bombers do virtually the same thing in zones where there is limited risk because of non-existent or ineffective air defense, and crews are frequently awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Some would argue "oh, that's different" they are actually flying in a combat zone, but is it really when there is no opposition or realistic threat?
 
mark056 said:
?... and crews are frequently awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Some would argue "oh, that's different" they are actually flying in a combat zone, but is it really when there is no opposition or realistic threat?
Click to expand...

I do not think crews are frequently awarded DFCs. They are frequently awarded air medals but I doubt DFCs are flying out the door. A DFC/DSC/Navy Cross I'd for conspicuous gallantry in the face of overwhelming odds. I was once told the difference between a MoH and a DSC is the guy that earned the MoH had enough witnesses to verify the events, the DSC did not.


In any event, this award should be ranked perhaps on par with the soldiers medal which is the highest award given in peace time for saving someone's life, and even in this, the person being awarded the Soldiers Medal needed to put their life in danger to be awarded the medal.
 
mark056 said:
I totally agree with the VFW and in fact see little use for this new decoration. I really think that the MSM or perhaps a BS without a V device might be appropriate, however one can make the argument that high altitude bombers do virtually the same thing in zones where there is limited risk because of non-existent or ineffective air defense, and crews are frequently awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Some would argue "oh, that's different" they are actually flying in a combat zone, but is it really when there is no opposition or realistic threat?
Click to expand...

Even during the safest missions, high altitude bombers can malfunction and crash with the crew inside. If a drone crashes, the pilot gets to take a pee break....

This new drone medal is BS and is IMO being used to sugarcoat this cowardly drone war approach that we have been using as of late
 
jcetto0351 said:
Even during the safest missions, high altitude bombers can malfunction and crash with the crew inside. If a drone crashes, the pilot gets to take a pee break....

This new drone medal is BS and is IMO being used to sugarcoat this cowardly drone war approach that we have been using as of late
Click to expand...

I don't exactly see how drone warfare can be described as cowardly. In WWI some opposed wearing metal helmets as cowardly. At Gallipoli the ANZAC troops charged the Turks with bayonets only because they didn't want to appear "cowardly"...if drones work and kill enemy soldiers, that is what it is all about. I suppose there were those who thought firearms cowardly when they gradually displaced edged weapons in combat. The sabre was not declared obsolete by the US Army until about 1936 or so. Maybe indirect fire is cowardly because artillery can shell positions from miles away. I think you need to redefine your terms a bit. The goal is to win on the battlefield by any means.

The issue at hand is whether or not a Distinguished Warfare Medal should be given out and on this we agree. A drone might crash, but in asymmetrical warfare in a forward operating base, a drone facility could be taken out. So where does the argument end?

Just out of curiosity, where did you serve in combat (not what combat zone did you serve in) ?
 
I do not see drones as being cowardly. Any time I can get intel or even bring fire on the enemy without exposing my troops or my position, is a great thing. On top of that, the psychological effect of a drone on an enemy will add stress and change how the enemy operates is a good thing. In the end for me, drones are a beautiful thing, but giving away "combat" medals for sitting in an air conditioned connex perhaps not even in theatre is BS.
 
mark056 said:
I totally agree with the VFW and in fact see little use for this new decoration. I really think that the MSM or perhaps a BS without a V device might be appropriate, however one can make the argument that high altitude bombers do virtually the same thing in zones where there is limited risk because of non-existent or ineffective air defense, and crews are frequently awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Some would argue "oh, that's different" they are actually flying in a combat zone, but is it really when there is no opposition or realistic threat?
Click to expand...

You could still die or get injured if your plane ****s up/crashes/etc. A guy sitting in a chair in an office somewhere, faces zero risk, pretty much. Nor does he have to deal with the lives of others being directly dependent on his competence, or only rarely so.

-Mike
 
mark056 said:
I don't exactly see how drone warfare can be described as cowardly. In WWI some opposed wearing metal helmets as cowardly. At Gallipoli the ANZAC troops charged the Turks with bayonets only because they didn't want to appear "cowardly"...if drones work and kill enemy soldiers, that is what it is all about. I suppose there were those who thought firearms cowardly when they gradually displaced edged weapons in combat. The sabre was not declared obsolete by the US Army until about 1936 or so. Maybe indirect fire is cowardly because artillery can shell positions from miles away. I think you need to redefine your terms a bit. The goal is to win on the battlefield by any means.

The issue at hand is whether or not a Distinguished Warfare Medal should be given out and on this we agree. A drone might crash, but in asymmetrical warfare in a forward operating base, a drone facility could be taken out. So where does the argument end?

Just out of curiosity, where did you serve in combat (not what combat zone did you serve in) ?
Click to expand...

I don't mean to say that drone operators are cowardly... I meant to say that trying to win a war (whether you agree we should be there or not) by NOT physically occuppying ground is cowardly! If used in conjunction with infantry, it is very useful and I've felt safer everytime I have heard the buzz of drones overhead.

My gripe is about the seniority this medal is getting in obama war on terror... The idea that because you can work a joystick, you can be awarded for VALOR is absolute horseshit! Even the POGs that never leave the wire can still be mortared! Drone pilots WILL NOT BE KILLED BY ENEMY ACTIONS!

Give the pilots a fancy ribbon because they perform a necessary job and I'm truly glad they do it but don't compare them to the heroes I served with who EARNED their bronze star with V

Heroes like my convoy commander Sgt. Armentrout who kept us from losing more Marines than we had to during my time in Iraq
http://www.lifeasamarine.com/marines/our-commitment/marine-corps-family/hometown-marines/Armentrout

Where did I serve?

Ar Ramadi, Iraq sept.2004-march 2005 and again march 2007- Oct. 2007

The most infuriating part is that I was written up for BS with V and was reduced to a Navy Commendation with V. I am sooooo proud of my navy comm and agree that I shouldn't have received the BS but to think some pilot in a conex box in louisiana can receive a higher award is a slap in the face to those forwardly deployed
 
jcetto0351 said:
I don't mean to say that drone operators are cowardly... I meant to say that trying to win a war (whether you agree we should be there or not) by NOT physically occuppying ground is cowardly! If used in conjunction with infantry, it is very useful and I've felt safer everytime I have heard the buzz of drones overhead.

My gripe is about the seniority this medal is getting in obama war on terror... The idea that because you can work a joystick, you can be awarded for VALOR is absolute horseshit! Even the POGs that never leave the wire can still be mortared! Drone pilots WILL NOT BE KILLED BY ENEMY ACTIONS!

Give the pilots a fancy ribbon because they perform a necessary job and I'm truly glad they do it but don't compare them to the heroes I served with who EARNED their bronze star with V

Heroes like my convoy commander Sgt. Armentrout who kept us from losing more Marines than we had to during my time in Iraq
http://www.lifeasamarine.com/marines/our-commitment/marine-corps-family/hometown-marines/Armentrout

Where did I serve?

Ar Ramadi, Iraq sept.2004-march 2005 and again march 2007- Oct. 2007

The most infuriating part is that I was written up for BS with V and was reduced to a Navy Commendation with V. I am sooooo proud of my navy comm and agree that I shouldn't have received the BS but to think some pilot in a conex box in louisiana can receive a higher award is a slap in the face to those forwardly deployed
Click to expand...

Okay we agree, I never disagreed with the basic premise and thanks for your service in combat. Why do we give out so many awards to begin with? Example: a person joins the Army (the service I know best). That makes them eligible for the NDSM. After AIT, the are eligible for the Army Service Ribbon, then too most if not all serving on active duty get the GWOTSM. Then there are the marksmanship badges, serve three years and you get a GCM. From my perspective the only awards that should be given should be for valor and nothing else. Now this would piss off a lot of people. I was decorated eight times and never fired a shot in anger at anyone (if you don't know the difference between a service medal and a decoration folks, please look it up). My highest award is still higher than a Navy Comm with V and it was for achievement not valor. Is that right? Personally I don't think so, but that's just me.

So how do we reward those who do a good job but are not necessarily in harm's way? Well...we can write good efficiency reports which would promote them faster except everybody gets good efficiency reports. We could give out nice certificates, except everybody who has been in the military for any given period of time probably has a whole bunch of certificates and maybe even framed them and have them on an "I love me wall." Then too there are the senior awards for service, it used to be that the Legion of Merit and the Distinguished Service Medal pretty much topped things, but then they invented other awards like the Defense Superior Service award and now the highest ranking officers even get these and the Defense Distinguished Service Medal. People game the system. I have people tell me that there are unit quotas for BS medals coming out of Afghanistan. I don't know where it is going to end.

No I don't support the idea of a Distinguished Warfare Medal at any level, it doesn't pass the common sense test, but then neither does our current system of awards and decorations in general. There are people serving today or who died serving who deserved the MOH but were or are never considered because they either didn't or don't match the Pentagon image of what a MOH recipient should be.

I think most service personnel who do a good job in non combat positions would probably like a nice cash bonus or maybe some extra time off rather than some achievement medal but that's just me.
 
It fits right in..................
newawards_zpsacc4b51c.jpg
 
I still think an AF commendation medal is just fine for these guys. They do a responsible job well, and don't have to get shot at; my understanding is that that's why the DoD has the "commendation"-level awards, rather than the "achievement" ones.

Not than anyone needs my $.02, but drones are great force multipliers, though their operators are in no danger of anything more severe than their feet falling asleep.
 
hurley431 said:
I felt the same; but, **** it.
I mean those of us who served should know better than for decisions made this high up to make any god damned sense.
Hell, the U.S. military motto should be "US Armed forces, winning battles since 1775, in spite of higher command"
un-****ing-believable
I hope the recipients of this medal feel real ****ing proud. After all, the grunts who gave their lives aren't that important.
Click to expand...

+1

what was our motto for 2nd BDE? COMMANDO? [laugh]
 
hurley431 said:
At least "climb to glory" had some historical significance, "commando" was just pulled out of some Sergeant Major's ass.
On a side note, when did you have the misfortune of being stationed up at drum?
In 4-31 we used to always say "Fort drum, the Army's best kept secret... because if anyone knew this ****ing place was real, they would of never joined."
Click to expand...

i was there twice. 95-98 as a generator / small engine mechanic @ 110th MI and then from 99-03 as line medic with 2-14 after reclassing. fun times the 2nd time around. lots of good times. [smile]

ETA: +1 on Climb to Glory. yup. definatley had some meaning. i liked our Bn's motto too. right of line. lots of prestige behind the 14th INF Rgt. i'm proud to have served in it.
 
usp45ct said:
I do not see drones as being cowardly. Any time I can get intel or even bring fire on the enemy without exposing my troops or my position, is a great thing. On top of that, the psychological effect of a drone on an enemy will add stress and change how the enemy operates is a good thing. In the end for me, drones are a beautiful thing, but giving away "combat" medals for sitting in an air conditioned connex perhaps not even in theatre is BS.
Click to expand...

Aren't most drones controlled from a base in the US?
 

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