• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Using an FFL to do personal transfer is ILLEGAL if you have used your 4 for the year

Mass-diver

Mass-diver

NES Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
6,276
Likes
1,867
Location
South Shore, MA
Feedback: 31 / 0 / 0
So, as often happens to me, I used up my last FTF for the year yesterday. I might be doing another trade, so I decided to contact a local dealer to do the transfer. This would be a trade (so two transfers) between 2 MA residents. I have used several dealers in the past without problems, but I wanted to see if an FFL closer to me would do it. This is a trade, so it's not like I'm bringing in out-of-state item that the dealer stocks. I also make it a point to buy some ammo or something while at the shop - to add to the $80+ they get for doing the transfer.

So, I hear back from the dealer and they tell me that they only do transfer for out-of-state items because they have had problem with people having used up their 4 transfers (like me) and then using the FFL to sell more firearms. They told me that the ATF had contacted them about this before and that I was putting myself at serious risk if I used an FFL to do transfers after using up my 4 fr the year: "the ATF doesn't play around."

They told me that I'm bypassing federal law and gave me the number to the ATF in boston. Kinda scared me a bit to be honest.......

Any truth to this???

BTW, they were very polite and I will NOT be posting the name of the dealer.
 
Last edited:
I do not believe this is correct at all. You can sell/trade as many guns as you wish using an FFL.
 
Every other MA dealer seems to have no problem doing transfers. Not sure why the feds would care about a MA-specific state law that has nothing to do with federal law.

$80 is a lot for a transfer.
 
There's no such thing as an "FFL to do personal transfer". You either sell face to face as a personal transfer between two licensed MA residents (up to four sales per year). OR you go to an FFL, in which case it's NOT a personal transfer. You're actually transferring possession to the FFL and then the FFL in turn passes possession to the buyer.
 
Sounds legal to me, you can do as many transfers as you want through an FFL. I believe he is saying two transfers @ $40 each, still a bit high.
 
Sorry for the confusion. IME in MA average price for a transfer is $40 (so the $80 was for 2). But,this dealer did NOT quote me a price, as he advised me that I was violating federal law and the ATF had contacted him in the past about FFL transfers for people going over their 4.

Also, in the interest of full disclosure, dealer is a NES FFL member and the exchange was via PM.

I always go over my 4, so this guy really scared me quite a bit.....But, I guess I'll just make the trip up to FS.
 
KMaurer said:
  • It's not illegal, and
  • $80 for a transfer is about double what most places around here charge.

Ken
Click to expand...

What he said!

Plus, I think I can guess who the BATFE agent is that gave them that "pearl of <incorrect> wisdom"!! [thinking] [rolleyes]

Some BATFE agents make up laws as they go along and seem to have a "mission in life" that's akin to the Brady Bunch instead of merely enforcing Fed Law properly. [e.g. The agent who audited a C&R FFL and told this COLLECTOR that he MUST keep his C&Rs in a different safe than his "personal guns"!! <DOH>]

Under MGLs and Fed Law, there is NO restriction on the number of guns that one can transfer thru an FFL (seller-FFL-buyer deal). Not unless the current wizards in DC created a new CFR "interpreting" Fed Law incorrectly to meet a political agenda. [I would not be shocked if this actually happened, given the current administration.]

To the OP, why not ask the dealer to contact his BATFE agent to request a citation to Fed Law or BATFE Regs on this matter. Tell him lots of friends are interested in this info (we are).
 
LenS said:
What he said!

Plus, I think I can guess who the BATFE agent is that gave them that "pearl of <incorrect> wisdom"!! [thinking] [rolleyes]

Some BATFE agents make up laws as they go along and seem to have a "mission in life" that's akin to the Brady Bunch instead of merely enforcing Fed Law properly. [e.g. The agent who audited a C&R FFL and told this COLLECTOR that he MUST keep his C&Rs in a different safe than his "personal guns"!! <DOH>]

Under MGLs and Fed Law, there is NO restriction on the number of guns that one can transfer thru an FFL (seller-FFL-buyer deal). Not unless the current wizards in DC created a new CFR "interpreting" Fed Law incorrectly to meet a political agenda. [I would not be shocked if this actually happened, given the current administration.]

To the OP, why not ask the dealer to contact his BATFE agent to request a citation to Fed Law or BATFE Regs on this matter. Tell him lots of friends are interested in this info (we are).
Click to expand...

Len, shoot me a PM - I believe you know this dealer and I'm sure there is some crazy backstory :(

The dealer gave me the number for the ATF in Boston and told me call to confirm.
 
The four-per-year limit is a state law. The ATF only cares about Federal Laws. If you were bypassing any laws it would be a state law not a federal one... but even the state law is ok with this.
 
The more I think about this, I wonder if this the case of a misinformed dealer or an ATF looking to spread misinformation bases on his or her own interpretation of the regs? Maybe both
 
Mass-diver said:
Len, shoot me a PM - I believe you know this dealer and I'm sure there is some crazy backstory :(

The dealer gave me the number for the ATF in Boston and told me call to confirm.
Click to expand...

Send me via Email off any of my posts.

I would NOT call the Boston number, no telling who you are talking with and if they really know what they are talking about. The FFL should Ask the AGENT who told him this for citation.

massaiga said:
The four-per-year limit is a state law. The ATF only cares about Federal Laws. If you were bypassing any laws it would be a state law not a federal one... but even the state law is ok with this.
Click to expand...

Not really true. BATFE Regs do state that FFLs must comply with state laws as well. Recent "interpretations" of this are leading BATFE agents to demand letters from town officials wrt zoning compliance (e.g. my town's zoning bylaws specifically allow resident businesses w/o employees w/o any special permits . . . asking for a zoning variance or letter from ZBA would likely NOT be successful - just throwing this out as an example, I know FFLs can't operate out of a house but I know some that have separate buildings on property that still operate in MA) and a lot of other stuff that is NOT specifically Fed Law. I know that some agents have taken this further than others when auditing dealers (e.g. claiming that an FFL can't show non-MA compliant guns in showcases, etc.).
 
The dealer doesn't want to do a transfer for you, but they don't have the balls to tell you they don't do them. Find a dealer with a brain and move on.

It sounds to me like the dealer in question is trying to blow smoke up your backside. This would make sense with a dealer charging you $80 per transfer when the average going rate is well under $50, even in MA.

-Mike
 
Last edited:
Manomet said:
Sounds legal to me, you can do as many transfers as you want through an FFL.
Click to expand...

Careful.

According to federal law, if you're in the business of selling firearms, you must have an FFL. It doesn't matter whether you're selling FTF or transferring through a dealer.

For example, let's say that during the Obama gun buying frenzy last year, I went around New England buying up every stripped lower, upper, and complete AR I could get my grubby hands on. Let's say that I then marked them up to at least twice what I paid for them, and sold them here in the Classifieds forum to people with mommy/daddy issues and less than 300 guns. Let's also say that after four FTF transfers, I went through a dealer with everything.

The BATFE would come down on me like a ton of bricks because I was in it to make money.

Think about it... Most states don't have the 4-transfer-per-year limit. Why doesn't every Tom, Dick, and Harry open up a gun store without an FFL in those states?

With that said, it's probably way over-cautious to treat 4 sales/trades as a hard cap. Even if you're making a little dough, if you're enhancing your collection by buying more guns with the money you make, they'd be hard pressed to prove you're in the business of selling guns.
 
EddieCoyle said:
Careful.

According to federal law, if you're in the business of selling firearms, you must have an FFL. It doesn't matter whether you're selling FTF or transferring through a dealer.

For example, let's say that during the Obama gun buying frenzy last year, I went around New England buying up every stripped lower, upper, and complete AR I could get my grubby hands on. Let's say that I then marked them up to at least twice what I paid for them, and sold them here in the Classifieds forum to people with mommy/daddy issues and less than 300 guns. Let's also say that after four FTF transfers, I went through a dealer with everything.

The BATFE would come down on me like a ton of bricks because I was in it to make money.

Think about it... Most states don't have the 4-transfer-per-year limit. Why doesn't every Tom, Dick, and Harry open up a gun store without an FFL in those states?

With that said, it's probably way over-cautious to treat 4 sales/trades as a hard cap. Even if you're making a little dough, if you're enhancing your collection by buying more guns with the money you make, they'd be hard pressed to prove you're in the business of selling guns.
Click to expand...

Jezz, EC, so maybe this dealer is somewhat correct?
 
What EC is talking about is what BATFE calls "Profit Motive."

Profit motive has nothing to do with some imaginary hard limit on the number of transfers... but you could get in serious trouble if BATFE decides that you are deriving substantial income from being in the business of buying and selling firearms.

If you sell a dozen guns in a year and you either break even, lose money, or don't make much on every gun, they probably won't care. On the other hand if you sold dozens of guns and made a significant profit on every one, then you are probably painting a bulls-eye on your back.

Generally speaking you have to try really hard to trigger profit motive. Someone who sells a few guns here and there every year would not qualify.


-Mike
 
Last edited:
drgrant said:
What EC is talking about is what BATFE calls "Profit Motive."

Profit motive has nothing to do with some imaginary hard limit on the number of transfers... but you could get in serious trouble if BATFE decides that you are deriving substantial income from being in the business of buying and selling firearms.

If you sell a dozen guns in a year and you either break even, lose money, or don't make much on every gun, they probably won't care. On the other hand if you sold dozens of guns and made a significant profit on every one, then you are probably painting a bulls-eye on your back.

Generally speaking you have to try really hard to trigger profit motive. Someone who sells a few guns here and there every year would not qualify.


-Mike
Click to expand...
The ATF would only know that someone is bringing a lot of guns to one particular dealer is if they happen to notice it in the bound book during an audit, especially if they all went to the same individual. What happens then would depend on the ambition of the particular inspector. Jack.
 
If you sell a dozen guns in a year and you either break even, lose money, or don't make much on every gun, they probably won't care. On the other hand if you sold dozens of guns and made a significant profit on every one, then you are probably painting a bulls-eye on your back.
Click to expand...

this... [wink]
 
When I've bought a gun via an FFL transfer, I paid the gun owner (in cash). The dealer (and thus BATFE) has NO IDEA what he sold it for or how much he originally paid for it.

NOW, when the 1099 on all private transactions takes hold and we need each other's SSNs and file 1099s on every transaction, then the IRS can work with the BATFE after you file your tax return and put the pieces of the puzzle together and they will have the evidence they need to come after you.

At this point, I'd guess that they would only go after someone whose name came up a large (unknown to us and probably quite arbitrary) number of transactions came up. I would guess that 6-12/year wouldn't get a yawn except from a true "activist agent" who'd shilling for the Brady Bunch.
 
Profit motive, I wish :)

I don't think I've ever made any money on a gun sale, I just try to break even as I tend to get bored with stuff and it's fun searching for the "perfect" gun.

Again, per this dealer, they (FFL) did an individual-to-individual transfer for a guy, the guy was apparently over his 4 for the year, and the ATF contacted the dealer as part of an investigation. I was warned that the same thing could happen to me.
 

Similar threads

MUST WATCH IF YOU ARE SELLING OR PLANNING TO SELL A FIREARM AND ARE NOT AN FFL
Replies
19
Views
569
Bigfudge16
Bigfudge16
Missouri law being passed: If you home school, your home is now considered a school and you can't own guns
Replies
17
Views
618
Nhusa
N
Maine gets close to implementing 3 Day Wait Period and makes it illegal to do Paramilitary Training in the State
2 3 4
Replies
94
Views
2K
track65
T
ATF Redefines All Private Sales & Who Has To Have A FFL
2
Replies
38
Views
1K
Flint
F
You guys remeber when agency used to charge 3 grand to make your glock look stupid
Replies
22
Views
701
groundscrapers
G
Back
Top Bottom