Tula .38 Steel Case Ammo Jammed Smith Wesson 438 Cylinder

[easycity]

Yesterday I had first jam with Smith Wesson 438 revolver, using Tula .38 steel case ammo.
I had used Remington .38 brass-cased ammo without jamming problem. The price is about 28 cents per round. At that time, I was enthusiastic about becoming a sub-MOA sharp-shooter with a J-frame revolver, I felt the need for thousands round of .38 ammo. Thus I bought some Tula .38 steel case ammo at 20 cents per round.
I had shot a couple hundreds of Tula steel case ammo through my 438, without any jamming problem. The steel case tends to stick in the cylinder. I could not use my hand to push the ejection rod. It would not budge. I need to rest the ejection rod on the table, and push the revolver forward. The bigger force will push the spent steel case out of cylinder.
Yesterday I shot more than 20 rounds. Then I loaded 5 rounds. After the 3rd round was fired, the cylinder is jammed tight in the revolver. I can push the ejection button forward, but the cylinder cannot swing left. The trigger cannot move, and hammer cannot move.
A staff in the range came to my rescue. He swung the cylinder out of way, and ejected 2 un-fired rounds. Then he brought a hammer and a punch, and punched out the 3 spent steel cases.
After I came home, I did dry fire on 438. Everything seems fine.
For some reason, I was not at the scene when the staff swing out the cylinder. I can only guess that he used a rubber mallet to knock the cylinder out.

Now I am more realistic about the accuracy potential of small revolvers. I will not need to buy thousands rounds of .38 ammo. I will stick with brass-case ammo from now on.
For Tula steel case .38 ammo, I guess that the dimension variance is a little too large. Some rounds end up jamming cylinder tight. If that happens again, should I push forward the ejection button, and knock on the cylinder with a rubber mallet?

 

[44marty]

NO
You obviously should not use the steel cased ammo at all

 

[92G]

perhaps this is the reason you almost never see steel cased ammo in rimmed revolver chamberings. steel cases do not seal the chamber like a brass case. i would give your cylinder chambers a good scrubbing with brass brush to fully remove fouling, then avoid steel cased .38 special from now on. if cost is an issue and you want to shoot a lot of 38 then would start reloading it.

 

[whatluck]

Had this happen to my 686. Do not hit with a mallet, you risk damaging the hand or gate. Bring to a gunsmith, and buy a lever gun to shoot that steel 38

 

[Knob Creek]

I believe some steel case ammo has a lacquer coating which when fired heats up and clings to the chamber. Some have a Polymer coating which is better. While some are zinc coated.
Its worse in a revolver. In a semi-auto the case is fired and ejected. In a revolver it stays in the chamber longer and has more of a chance to cool and adhere to the cylinder walls.

 

[whacko]

I'll catch some flames for this probably......

Fire arms were designed to use brass cases. Brass expands and contracts in the chamber.....or cylinder.....making extraction reliable. Brass is softer than steel.....which leads to less wear and tear on the gun.

I'll never use steel case in any of my fire arms.


Edit.....in my mosins I use the surplus Russian ammo which I believe is steel or "bimetal" whatever that means. In the guns I actually care about and shoot alot......I use brass.

 

[TrashcanDan]

I'll catch some flames for this probably......

Fire arms were designed to use brass cases. Brass expands and contracts in the chamber.....or cylinder.....making extraction reliable. Brass is softer than steel.....which leads to less wear and tear on the gun.

I'll never use steel case in any of my fire arms.

Good call.
Brass "re-shrinks" back to close to spec where as steel coupled with whatever coating it comes with just kind of "stays there".

 

[snubnose]

Is the issue the case or the amount of powder in the case?

Our LCR revovlers regardless of caliber-.22 wmr/.38/.357 or the most practical, the 9mm will fire/eject domestic brass or aluminum ammo without issue-standard pressures. Hot loads get somewhat more difficult to extract but they do extract using only your hands/fingers. The Russian stuff, which we have not used in a an awful long time, was nearly impossible to get out of the cylinder-our hands/wrists and shoulders (when using the CX4 Storm) clearly indicate the stuff was hot.

Remember the coefficient of expansion is much more for brass and aluminum than for steel-I really don't think that the variable is the case material at all-as for any steel coatings? a factor sure but I think a very minor one.

With the current rebates you can get brass 9mm 115 fmj for about half the cost of .38-more performance for less money.

 

[easycity]

Thanks for all the advice.
I did feel that the recoil from Tula .38 steel case ammo is significantly larger than Remington .38 brass case ammo.
With Remington, I can shoot 20 rounds in a row, and feel a little pain in my palm. With Tula, every shot gave me a painful whack. I need to tolerate the pain to finish 5 rounds. The recoil is at least 30 percent larger for Tula.
I also happened to shoot 150 rounds of Wolf 9mm steel case ammo out of my Shield 2.0. The recoil felt more comfortable than my usual CCI Brazer, Aguila, or Federal aluminum case ammo. But the POI is 2 inches lower than POA. My other brass case or aluminum case ammo usually hits the POA. I suspect the Wolf 9mm steel case ammo has low power loading.

i tried steel case ammo for the reason of cost, as well as conservation of resource. Copper is a limited resource world wide, where steel is extremely plentiful, and aluminum is inexhaustible. I felt it is a little too extravagant to use copper in shooting practices. Well, now I know more.

 

[whacko]

Thanks for all the advice.
I did feel that the recoil from Tula .38 steel case ammo is significantly larger than Remington .38 brass case ammo.
With Remington, I can shoot 20 rounds in a row, and feel a little pain in my palm. With Tula, every shot gave me a painful whack. I need to tolerate the pain to finish 5 rounds. The recoil is at least 30 percent larger for Tula.
I also happened to shoot 150 rounds of Wolf 9mm steel case ammo out of my Shield 2.0. The recoil felt more comfortable than my usual CCI Brazer, Aguila, or Federal aluminum case ammo. But the POI is 2 inches lower than POA. My other brass case or aluminum case ammo usually hits the POA. I suspect the Wolf 9mm steel case ammo has low power loading.

i tried steel case ammo for the reason of cost, as well as conservation of resource. Copper is a limited resource world wide, where steel is extremely plentiful, and aluminum is inexhaustible. I felt it is a little too extravagant to use copper in shooting practices. Well, now I know more.

Cases are generally brass not copper. The projos are copper jacketed lead or just lead. I think your a bit confused about what most cases are made of.

In any case......fire arms are designed to use brass cases. It's no surprise that the reliability may go down with certain fire arms when you buy aluminum or steel case ammo. Some guns will run steel or aluminum.....but you get what you pay for.

 

[daekken]

I'll catch some flames for this probably......

Fire arms were designed to use brass cases.

*Most firearms.

For ARs you can save so much shooting steel (if you shoot high volume) you can probably buy more than one extra barrel and BCG, etc.
That said I usually run brass since I reload.

I don't shoot any Tulammo because I've just had poor accuracy results with it.
Wolf is another story. It's not "match" ammo but it's more than adequate for most applications.

Really depends on the cartridge, firearm, etc.
Brass is a good default, but if you are shooting a modern firearm of respectable quality, it should hand reputable brands of steel without issue.

 

[whacko]

*Most firearms.

For ARs you can save so much shooting steel (if you shoot high volume) you can probably buy more than one extra barrel and BCG, etc.
That said I usually run brass since I reload.

I don't shoot any Tulammo because I've just had poor accuracy results with it.
Wolf is another story. It's not "match" ammo but it's more than adequate for most applications.

A friend of mine tried steel case ammo in his AR......jam o matic....brass ammo works fine in his.

Besides the mosin nagant what guns are designed specifically for shooting non brass ammo?

 

[daekken]

A friend of mine tried steel case ammo in his AR......jam o matic....brass ammo works fine in his.

Besides the mosin nagant what guns are designed specifically for shooting non brass ammo?

Is his a beater AR or a good manufacturer? None of my firearms have ever choked on steel case.
Basically all AK platforms utilize steel case, such as 7n6. The series of rifles otherwise known as arguably the most reliable rifles in the world...

I don't shoot much steel since I reload, and I wouldn't run it in something where replacement parts like extractors or firing pins, etc. are hard to come by. I don't shoot steel case in my milsurps. But for modern firearms, it should run them.

Depending on your savings, you can usually replace a few minor parts many times over and still have money to spare. Something like an AR where barrels are comparatively cheap and easy to replace, if you like the accuracy results you really don't need to worry about steel case.

ETA: Apparently HK91/FAL often encourages use of steel case as the roller lock system is hard on brass; steel can withstand the extraction violence better. No experience on that front.

 

[whacko]

Is his a beater AR or a good manufacturer? None of my firearms have ever choked on steel case.
Basically all AK platforms utilize steel case, such as 7n6. The series of rifles otherwise known as arguably the most reliable rifles in the world...

Point taken.

Back on subject though...op is asking about steel case in a revolver......he's shooting ammo that the gun was not designed for so sticking cases is expected in my opinion.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Ahhh. Russian steel cased ammo. Shoot a mag of it, smells like Boris (not our Boris - just a generic Boris) just took a dump next to you and lit it on fire. Good stuff.

 

[daekken]

Point taken.

Back on subject though...op is asking a out steel case in a revolver......he's shooting ammo that the gun was not designed for so sticking cases is expected in my opinion.

I know of someone that tried steel in his S&W revolver and also had problems with sticking cases. I've never tried steel in my revolvers since I reload 38spl. While I wouldn't say sticking is "expected" I would concede "possible" or "not unexpected."

I should have clarified my comments were more for semi-autos; I've shot steel 9mm with no problems in different pistols, and I shoot it exclusively in SKS/AK. I've shot it through various ARs with no problems.

 

[DW357]

Thanks for all the advice.
I did feel that the recoil from Tula .38 steel case ammo is significantly larger than Remington .38 brass case ammo.
With Remington, I can shoot 20 rounds in a row, and feel a little pain in my palm. With Tula, every shot gave me a painful whack. I need to tolerate the pain to finish 5 rounds. The recoil is at least 30 percent larger for Tula.
I also happened to shoot 150 rounds of Wolf 9mm steel case ammo out of my Shield 2.0. The recoil felt more comfortable than my usual CCI Brazer, Aguila, or Federal aluminum case ammo. But the POI is 2 inches lower than POA. My other brass case or aluminum case ammo usually hits the POA. I suspect the Wolf 9mm steel case ammo has low power loading.

i tried steel case ammo for the reason of cost, as well as conservation of resource. Copper is a limited resource world wide, where steel is extremely plentiful, and aluminum is inexhaustible. I felt it is a little too extravagant to use copper in shooting practices. Well, now I know more.

Spend the extra $2-$3 per box and buy brass cased ammo
Prvi Partizan 38 Special Ammo 158 Grain Semi-Wadcutter
Federal American Eagle 38 Special 158 Grain LRN

 

[Alex9661]

I believe some steel case ammo has a lacquer coating which when fired heats up and clings to the chamber.

It's an urban legend. There's a video somewhere showing how someone unsuccessfully tried to melt this coating with a blowtorch.

BTW, I think they haven't used lacquer coating in years.

 

[snubnose]

Unless I am missing something Smith has no position on case material-they do sanction only saami spec ammo which, again unless I am missing something, also takes no position on case material.

If one reads/follows the recommendations in their owners manual (Smith) the only ammo prohibited (for modern revolvers-those with a model stamped on the yoke) is ALL non saami spec and reloaded ammo: +p is saami spec, +p+ is not nor is NATO.

Additionally Smith directs all to a saami link for 'unsafe ammo combinations' which is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Please advise should I be in error.

 

[whacko]

It's an urban legend. There's a video somewhere showing how someone unsuccessfully tried to melt this coating with a blowtorch.

BTW, I think they haven't used lacquer coating in years.

The silver bear brand of 7.62 x 54r I bought last year definitely had a coating on it.

 

[whacko]

Unless I am missing something Smith has no position on case material-they do sanction only saami spec ammo which, again unless I am missing something, also takes no position on case material.

If one reads/follows the recommendations in their owners manual (Smith) the only ammo prohibited (for modern revolvers-those with a model stamped on the yoke) is ALL non saami spec and reloaded ammo: +p is saami spec, +p+ is not nor is NATO.

Additionally Smith directs all to a saami link for 'unsafe ammo combinations' which is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Please advise should I be in error.

All I know is anyone I know that has tried steel case in a revolver has had sticking case problems. Yeah it shoots fine ....but unloading is pain in the ass. Never said it would break the gun or that it was unsafe.

 

[daekken]

It's an urban legend. There's a video somewhere showing how someone unsuccessfully tried to melt this coating with a blowtorch.

BTW, I think they haven't used lacquer coating in years.

Golden Tiger (and by extension RAS) lacquer coats (and seals primers) on 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and .223 (RAS) at the very least; I have boxes purchased from TSUSA a couple weeks ago in this condition.

 

[SKumar]

Never use steel in revolvers. In semi autos its fine.

 

[Knob Creek]

Never use steel in revolvers. In semi autos its fine.

I think that about sums it up.

 

[snubnose]

So Smith neglected to put the 'never use steel' advisory in the manual because------------------------

 

[whacko]

So Smith neglected to put the 'never use steel' advisory in the manual because------------------------

Because they just tend to stick in the cylinder ......not cause damage or pose safety concerns.

 

[easycity]

I know that HK VP9 stated in their warranty that shooting steel-case ammo will void the warranty. But Smith Wesson did not exclude steel case ammo. I assume that steel case ammo should not cause damage or safety hazard on Smith Wesson guns.
If steel case ammo only may stick in the cylinder, can I use some kind of lubricant on the ammo that can withstand the high temperature in the cylinder? I do not want the lubricant to be burned and stick to the cylinder by itself. Is Hoppe's 9 lubricant good enough? While Hoppe'9 lubricant is quite expensive, is ordinary Vaseline good enough?

 

[Zappa]

I'll catch some flames for this probably......

Fire arms were designed to use brass cases. Brass expands and contracts in the chamber.....or cylinder.....making extraction reliable. Brass is softer than steel.....which leads to less wear and tear on the gun.

This^

It's called obturation.
When a cartridge is fired in a chamber, it expands tight to the chamber walls which seals the gasses from coming around the outside of the case. Brass expands easily, sealing the chamber, but it also has some elasticity to it and shrinks back slightly allowing for easy extraction. Steel requires higher pressure to expand and seal, but it isn't as elastic, so it does not shrink back to its former dimension as brass does, thus creating the sticky extraction problem. Obturation is why it's necessary to resize your cases back down to factory dimensions in the reloading process.
Now the opposite can be seen when using very low pressure rounds, such as .45LC cowboy action loads.
They're loaded extra light for fast recoil recovery, but come out of the gun very dirty and sooty on the outside of the case. This is because they don't fully obturate, which allows the gasses to get between the case and the chamber walls.

 

[whacko]

I know that HK VP9 stated in their warranty that shooting steel-case ammo will void the warranty. But Smith Wesson did not exclude steel case ammo. I assume that steel case ammo should not cause damage or safety hazard on Smith Wesson guns.
If steel case ammo only may stick in the cylinder, can I use some kind of lubricant on the ammo that can withstand the high temperature in the cylinder? I do not want the lubricant to be burned and stick to the cylinder by itself. Is Hoppe's 9 lubricant good enough? While Hoppe'9 lubricant is quite expensive, is ordinary Vaseline good enough?

I wouldn't apply any lube to the carteridges only because ive never heard of it being done and can only imagine it causing gunked up cylinders.

You have learned a lesson the hard way. The lesson is don't buy 4000 rounds of any type of ammo before testing about 100 rounds of it for reliability and accuracy first.

 

[mac1911]

I know that HK VP9 stated in their warranty that shooting steel-case ammo will void the warranty. But Smith Wesson did not exclude steel case ammo. I assume that steel case ammo should not cause damage or safety hazard on Smith Wesson guns.
If steel case ammo only may stick in the cylinder, can I use some kind of lubricant on the ammo that can withstand the high temperature in the cylinder? I do not want the lubricant to be burned and stick to the cylinder by itself. Is Hoppe's 9 lubricant good enough? While Hoppe'9 lubricant is quite expensive, is ordinary Vaseline good enough?

No need for lube, try this clean your revolver as you would for a good scrub down then only use steel case and see if you get any issues.
I have shot a bunch of steel cased ammo over the years.
I have not experienced any more problems with steel than other ammo
Honestly UMC has bar fat been the worst 9mm,45, 357 , 223 I have ever used