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Thoughts on American Firearms School
- Thread starter JmasterJ
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AFS is not a club, but a commercial operation. There are positives and negatives to this:
You're not expected to attend work parties, come to meetings, track down hard to find club staff to get an issue resolved (AFS is staffed whenever open).
Facilities are nicer than many clubs that tend to operate on a very thin budget.
Clean restrooms, on-site shop, staff always available to help.
The ranges are swept clean every day by the staff.
You don't get as much of a social atmosphere, and the facility has "owners and employees", not persons elected by the membership.
Price is a bit more than many non-profit clubs, however, I found that difference to be surprisingly small. If this place was closer to me I would join - as it istands, it's a bit of a ride so I only go there for special events like matches.
Unlike some (but not all) private clubs, you don't get a key for 24x7 range access.
You must sign a log book, the contents of which are available to the BATFE on request. ALthoug hthat bothers some people, do you really think that (a) the BATFE cares about licensed gun owners using a range, and (b) do you really think it would take them more than 10 minutes to get a complete list of all LTC/FID holders from Massachusetts?
All in all, the place is a pretty decent facility and the current management has their heads screwed on straight.
You're not expected to attend work parties, come to meetings, track down hard to find club staff to get an issue resolved (AFS is staffed whenever open).
Facilities are nicer than many clubs that tend to operate on a very thin budget.
Clean restrooms, on-site shop, staff always available to help.
The ranges are swept clean every day by the staff.
You don't get as much of a social atmosphere, and the facility has "owners and employees", not persons elected by the membership.
Price is a bit more than many non-profit clubs, however, I found that difference to be surprisingly small. If this place was closer to me I would join - as it istands, it's a bit of a ride so I only go there for special events like matches.
Unlike some (but not all) private clubs, you don't get a key for 24x7 range access.
You must sign a log book, the contents of which are available to the BATFE on request. ALthoug hthat bothers some people, do you really think that (a) the BATFE cares about licensed gun owners using a range, and (b) do you really think it would take them more than 10 minutes to get a complete list of all LTC/FID holders from Massachusetts?
All in all, the place is a pretty decent facility and the current management has their heads screwed on straight.
Two questions:
1. If the BATFE truly does not care "about licensed gun owners using a range," why does it collect that data?
2. Why does BATFE want the ADDITIONAL information about drivers license numbers and state of issuance? Or has BATFE now subsumed the RMV as part of its "Homeland Security" mission creep?
Agreed.
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I don't have the answer to #2.
As to #1 - they had a successful prosecution against a convicted felon who rented a gun at the Boston Gun Club for on-premises use, and obtained a 3 year federal "felon in posession" sentence against the person.
It's only speculation, but my guess is they care about use by federally prohibited persons.
And an LTC or DL provides the range with THAT information HOW? And if BATFE has specific information about a particular subject - as opposed to conducting a general fishing expedition by running everyone's name through NCIC - why not make a specific inquiry about that party to the range in question?
This smacks of data collection for its own sake - NOT a worthwhile objective.
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J
JellyFish
I like AFS. It's a good place, I got started there and I've found the staff nice to deal with. Henry is a great instructor too. I go down there sometimes to target shoot, I prefer it during the week though as the weekends seem to get a bit crowded at times.
All in all, I'd say check it out and see how you like it.
All in all, I'd say check it out and see how you like it.
J
JellyFish
Yes, he is the guy who taught me how to shoot. I remember when he first handed me a .22 pistol and I was TERRIFIED of it. LOL
I was sure I would drop it or the recoil would knock it out of my hands. I really have come a loooooooooooooooooong way since then.![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
I was sure I would drop it or the recoil would knock it out of my hands. I really have come a loooooooooooooooooong way since then.
AFS is a public range. You do not need to have a firearms license to shoot there. I have on occasion seen gang bangers renting firearms. The additional gathering of info may have to do with the fact that many non-licensed shooters use the range...as well as homeland security issues.
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I agree with Scriv's thoughts on data collection, however, I can also see if from AFS's perspective.
Consider that the BATFE has tremendous discretionary authority. There isn't a shop around that won't from time to time have some technical error - perhaps not being able to find a particular gun in inventory when audited, a problem with a form, etc.
If the shop refuses to "cooperate" they risk facing letter of the law enforcement in situations where a shop would normally get an informal correction from the ATF agent. Now, consider the people who are asking that AFS risk this so they don't have to sign the log as a condition for using the facility. Will these people respond to word of ATF charges for a technical violation with "so sorry to here that, here's my $1000 donation towards you legal fund" or are these people taking the position "I want you to risk your money to protect me from this data collection." I can't really say I blame AFS management for the path they took.
Consider that the BATFE has tremendous discretionary authority. There isn't a shop around that won't from time to time have some technical error - perhaps not being able to find a particular gun in inventory when audited, a problem with a form, etc.
If the shop refuses to "cooperate" they risk facing letter of the law enforcement in situations where a shop would normally get an informal correction from the ATF agent. Now, consider the people who are asking that AFS risk this so they don't have to sign the log as a condition for using the facility. Will these people respond to word of ATF charges for a technical violation with "so sorry to here that, here's my $1000 donation towards you legal fund" or are these people taking the position "I want you to risk your money to protect me from this data collection." I can't really say I blame AFS management for the path they took.
My membership at AFS will be expiring in a few weeks...I will not be renewing. I recently joined Mansfield Fish and Game. AFS is a great club due to the fact that they are tactical friendly (no round restrictions, can shoot from a draw, can rapid fire). I am shocked at how few clubs will let you do this (Mansfield is tactical friendly).
The reasons why I decided to leave AFS are as follows:
1. LEO agencies often use the club for training resulting in the club being closed.
2. Membership at the club is now $225 (Mansfield is only $100).
3. I recently purchased a AR and wanted to have to option to shoot at greater distances (100 yards).
The reasons why I decided to leave AFS are as follows:
1. LEO agencies often use the club for training resulting in the club being closed.
2. Membership at the club is now $225 (Mansfield is only $100).
3. I recently purchased a AR and wanted to have to option to shoot at greater distances (100 yards).
J
JellyFish
AFS went to $225? Hmmm...I was not aware of that.
Yeah, the only thing bad I have noticed at AFS is that it takes them forever to fix things. Sometimes a lane will be closed because a target retractor garage door mechanism thingy will be broken for a week or two. I think they still have (going on two months) a shattered plexiglass barrier that seperates the lanes that someone shot out. (Sorry to be the person in the next lane when that happened, probably sh#t their pants) I try to keep my wits about me there, because the place is a "public" shooting range(members and nonmembers) and in my opinion, certain people should never be allowed to touch a firearm...Ya never know who's behind you there.
J
JellyFish
Who shot the freaking plexiglass barrier? GEEZ...Glad I wasn't there when that happened. Stupid dumbasses. That's why I like the weekdays, not many people there.
I like AFS... it is a bit of a ride and more expensive then other clubs for a year, but... for me it has worked out while I search for a club... I can go in, pay my $20 for an hour. Shoot whatever toys they have and go home.
Now that I have my own guns, I am seeking a privite club.
I do worry about some of the floks I see shooting at AFS. I remember seeing that busted plexi glass and thinking "Glad I wasn't on the otherside when that happend"
I have noticed the price jump recently. But again. If you dont belong to a club and wanna shoot many different guns that you don't own... It is a great place. The staff is friendly and helpful (from what I have seen) Henry is great, and they have a nice selection of rentals.
Now that I have my own guns, I am seeking a privite club.
I do worry about some of the floks I see shooting at AFS. I remember seeing that busted plexi glass and thinking "Glad I wasn't on the otherside when that happend"
I have noticed the price jump recently. But again. If you dont belong to a club and wanna shoot many different guns that you don't own... It is a great place. The staff is friendly and helpful (from what I have seen) Henry is great, and they have a nice selection of rentals.
Don't most real-world LE agencies (not just the TV shows like "Lore & Odor") use the same or similar techniques to "encourage" cooperation from people?
Not to get off topic, but how exactly did you know that these people were gang bangers? Where they throwing up gang signs? Trying to recruit you? Did they just look like skell? Or was it you making a generalization based on some attributes?massnee said:
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
![[laugh2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/014.gif "Laugh at above [laugh2]")
was at AFS on Friday and have to say... At the risk of being streotypical, there was surely a group of 4 .... um... I'm going to say, skeptical characters.
Now... I have a good read on people... line of work requires that.
And it is not based on just the clothing, tatoos, excessive bling. But mostly on mannerisms.
and I can say that the group of 4 that were shooting in the lane next to me surely made me nervous. I was glad that they had an employee on the range that day and that she did keep a close eye on them. and had to speak to them a couple of times about safe shooting, walking with loaded fire arm, pointing firearm in safe direction, ect.
Now, I can say that she did scrutinize them when they arrived and kept a close eye one them as they obvously knew little about gun safety... but it did solitify my decision to find a privite club.
AFS is still good to new shooters and rentals IMO. But probably not the best for someone that wants the comfort of knowing that those that are at the club know what they are doing.
Now... I have a good read on people... line of work requires that.
And it is not based on just the clothing, tatoos, excessive bling. But mostly on mannerisms.
and I can say that the group of 4 that were shooting in the lane next to me surely made me nervous. I was glad that they had an employee on the range that day and that she did keep a close eye on them. and had to speak to them a couple of times about safe shooting, walking with loaded fire arm, pointing firearm in safe direction, ect.
Now, I can say that she did scrutinize them when they arrived and kept a close eye one them as they obvously knew little about gun safety... but it did solitify my decision to find a privite club.
AFS is still good to new shooters and rentals IMO. But probably not the best for someone that wants the comfort of knowing that those that are at the club know what they are doing.
Agreed! They fix that broken glass yet or what? I don't know much about running this type of business, but if you ask me, weeds growing out of your gutters and disorderly landscaping is a sure sign that funds are either tight or they just don't give a #uck. Personally, if it was mine to run, I would be out there picking those damn weeds myself. Different strokes for different folks I guess
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
+1 on the skeptical characters. I'm a member and see quite a few people that I wonder about. I sometimes shoot with my brother-in-law who is a local LEO and he often points out people that he has run ins with while on the job. The day I joined he was with me and advised me to always carry in and out of the building just to be safe. As for AFS the employees are great, I was very new to shooting and they helped me out a lot. The down time for maintenance and LEO training can be inconvenient but if you check the web site they post closures well in advance so you can work around them. As for me, my interests have changed and I'll also be looking for a new club when my membership runs out.
Turn-arounds take time and money, although one would think the income from all those LEOs training there would address the second problem.
Anyhow, AFS is again holding a 3-month series of USPSA competitions this winter and provided the classroom and range for a 2-day course (yesterday and next Sunday) for USPSA volunteers to introduce 7 shooters to its competition format.
Note that the "security" issue involving drivers licenses being logged and the licenses themselves being left available in a holder on the counter has been ameliorated. The licenses and log book are now more secure.
Anyhow, AFS is again holding a 3-month series of USPSA competitions this winter and provided the classroom and range for a 2-day course (yesterday and next Sunday) for USPSA volunteers to introduce 7 shooters to its competition format.
Note that the "security" issue involving drivers licenses being logged and the licenses themselves being left available in a holder on the counter has been ameliorated. The licenses and log book are now more secure.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
I like AFS, it's just a longer drive for me than MRA. I still have a membership that will last through most of this coming summer, and it's a better place for me to practice draw and fire and rapid fire as MRA appears to frown upon that.
I liked AFS right up until the point where they started encouraging me to break the transport laws of Mass. I'm from RI and took their basic pistol class. I got verbal and written assurances including quoted Mass GL stating that it was ok for me to transport my firearm to the range in Mass from RI without a Mass LTC.
The quoted GL was misquoted. When asked point blank they assured me it was legal. I checked with GOAL, the State Police, and the Mass AG. Every one of them said it was not legal without the Mass LTC.
It's too bad, since I liked the facility. But bouncing over the line and chancing arrest wasn't worth the trouble. Neither was the 100$ ltc.
The quoted GL was misquoted. When asked point blank they assured me it was legal. I checked with GOAL, the State Police, and the Mass AG. Every one of them said it was not legal without the Mass LTC.
It's too bad, since I liked the facility. But bouncing over the line and chancing arrest wasn't worth the trouble. Neither was the 100$ ltc.
