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The Knife Attack On The Ground
- Thread starter jmjkd
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Twigg
NES Member
If you're going to post a link, please have the courtesy to tell us a little about what it is you're linking to. Many of us will not click on random links without any idea of what it is you are linking to.
Joe, I have a suggestion for you.
You've been here for a little over three years now with the bulk of your posting in the survival sub-forum and let's all be honest here. This forum is not one of your strength's.
Why not focus where your strengths are and what you are most knowledgeable about; the martial arts ? You should buy yourself an instructor's membership here and then you would have you own sub forum within the Training section and you know what ? You'd have the ONLY unarmed combat section here and have moderator privliges within your sub-forum as well.
Think that might draw in some new students ?
If you're as successful as the clippings you post suggest you are, I believe you'd develop a pretty good following here.
I have to agree that this stuff belongs in the training section. I know you like to tie in survival to martial arts, but you are a minority within a minority. We could fill up the survival forum with threads about drawing your carry weapon, or shooting upside down while laying on your back, but there are other sections of NES for that stuff. I would like to see a sub-forum for H2H discussion, but thats up to the Powers That Be.
Good article though.
Good article though.
Guys I gave what you said some thought and research and here are the facts.
The 2- most important tools for survival in history were first the knife and second the gun. These two tools have been linked to survival for the last 2 hundred years and the knife dates back pre-bronze age 3,300 BCE, with evidence to Otzi the ice man.
The knife was designed for skinning, cutting and self defense., flint lock guns were designed for hunting and self defense. Self defense is different then Martial Arts taught today wearing little white uniforms in brightly lite studios.
A solider of today is no different then a solider of the 17th century, both carry knife and gun for self defense to survive (stay alive).. Little has changed in the last 2 hundred years with the exception of perception in society creating nice neat separations.
The recreational sport of shooting, archery, hiking, camping, karate, boxing, wrestling, and MMA have little to do with the original purpose behind the creation of the Knife, Gun for self defense and survival, although there a hints of resemblance to the sports/activities.
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There will never be a recreational sport/activity of..... TSHTF which I believe everyone would like to survive.
I think Self defense should be under the heading” Survival' since according to historical documents it has always been linked to the history of the knife and gun while the other sports according to recent documents should be under the sub category ” Recreational Activities” as found in directories.
The facts are the facts and It is, what it is. But if folks need to separate it that's fine but they loose the integration to be complete that's all.
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The 2- most important tools for survival in history were first the knife and second the gun. These two tools have been linked to survival for the last 2 hundred years and the knife dates back pre-bronze age 3,300 BCE, with evidence to Otzi the ice man.
The knife was designed for skinning, cutting and self defense., flint lock guns were designed for hunting and self defense. Self defense is different then Martial Arts taught today wearing little white uniforms in brightly lite studios.
A solider of today is no different then a solider of the 17th century, both carry knife and gun for self defense to survive (stay alive).. Little has changed in the last 2 hundred years with the exception of perception in society creating nice neat separations.
The recreational sport of shooting, archery, hiking, camping, karate, boxing, wrestling, and MMA have little to do with the original purpose behind the creation of the Knife, Gun for self defense and survival, although there a hints of resemblance to the sports/activities.
.
There will never be a recreational sport/activity of..... TSHTF which I believe everyone would like to survive.
I think Self defense should be under the heading” Survival' since according to historical documents it has always been linked to the history of the knife and gun while the other sports according to recent documents should be under the sub category ” Recreational Activities” as found in directories.
The facts are the facts and It is, what it is. But if folks need to separate it that's fine but they loose the integration to be complete that's all.
.
.
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What? Your logic baffles me. I didnt realize that the knife was only about 5000 yrs old and the flintlock only 200 years old. There are a lot of knives that predate Otzi as evidenced by numerous archaelogical digs around the world. Those trappers and mountain men that settled Kentucky and Tn in the early 1700s must have carried something besides a flintlock longarm. The more you type the less intelligent you sound.
Boghog1
NES Member
Otzi would have been better off with a bow or Atlatl as a defensive weapon since he died from the wounds from an arrow, instead of his knife. survival is connected to everyday life, I work so I can survive that doesn't mean I should be posting about sitting in a cubical as a method of survival in a survival forum no it would be asinine, important topics like self defense tend to be specific and require their own discussion so as not to get lost in a crowd.
oh look a squirrel
What were we talking about
oh look a squirrel
What were we talking about
Boghog1
NES Member
Yes a knife and a gun has been used for self defense and survival so has keeping a friggen job been used as survival but there are not post about what job is the best to survive with, a baseball bat has been used in a self defense and survival situations and a stick probably has going back at least 6000 years maybe longer depending on what your religious views are but we do not discuss hickory or oak
Both were and are to this day. Anyone can see that. Self defense certainly has a role in survival as well. If we apply your thinking I would say that hunting and fishing are directly tied with survival but they have a forum of their own. Firearms have their own forum as does the ammunition they use. If someone asks about the best SD ammo they go to the ammunition forum. It would only make sense that if someone has specific questions about self defense and H2H they would best be answered in a seperate forum rather than mixed in with gardening, FA, and a dozen other topics in the survival catchall.
What I am saying is that every time you type your lack of knowledge shines through more and more. Everything from lard being a petroleum product to the knife being only about 5000 years old. Every time you do this you damage your credibility. It makes people on this site doubt even the stuff you really are an expert in. I read your bio on your site. If I am looking for an instructor in martial arts I dont care that you were a gymnast, a football player and 5 time national rollerskating champion. That was 40 years ago in high school. That is great and to be national champion in anything is impressive, but how does it tie into your martial arts? It is great that you got your picture taken with Richard Marcinko. Cool but what does that tell me about you as a trainer. I see that you trained with a lot of people but I dont see much about tournaments you entered, individuals you coached that won. That is the stuff that people look for. You seem very much into the flash and dash. THe legend of the great Joe Maffei. All legends are rooted in fact but like most legends I think this one has grown exponentially.
As for your article it was interesting and I think you have a very good editor. No I am not a practitioner of edged weapons. My training has been some limited LE training in defending against a knife.
jmjkd,
The article was alright, but I'm going to have to agree with the others here, the more you type, the less credibility you have.
To claim the knife was the first or the most important tool to survival is ignorant. The short list for most important would be language, fire or containers to transport and store water. It would be hard to know definatively what would be the first, but most likely the common club or prehaps a simple rock.
The firearm was hardly the next. there are thousands of inovations between the discovery of fire, language or transportation and storage of water that pre-date the development of early guns, handcannons and match-locks. Early chinese firearms have been dated to the 12th century 900 years ago. Personal firearms in Europe date to the 14th century.
Also, your earlier claim that most martial arts instructors discourage or even forbid studying other styles certainly doesn't hold up under my experience. I have trained under 5 different martial arts instructors in 4 different forms. Every one of them encouraged cross-training in other styles and even with other instructors in the same form. I know specifically that 3 of them direct their students who have achieved the standing of "black-belt" to take at least 1 year off to train under another style or instructor and return to teach what they've learned. My current instructor has at least a dozen students who came to him with black-belts in other styles or other schools. They wear their belts from their other school and are shown the respect of their rank while working through the ranks of his school. He periodically brings in instructors from other schools and styles to "guest instruct" class for the benefit of his students, and encourages such instructors to pass out business cards to attending students. No, my experience isn't exaustive, and it's possible that "most" instructors do discourage learning from multiple instructors or styles, but the statement doesn't ring true with me.
The article was alright, but I'm going to have to agree with the others here, the more you type, the less credibility you have.
To claim the knife was the first or the most important tool to survival is ignorant. The short list for most important would be language, fire or containers to transport and store water. It would be hard to know definatively what would be the first, but most likely the common club or prehaps a simple rock.
The firearm was hardly the next. there are thousands of inovations between the discovery of fire, language or transportation and storage of water that pre-date the development of early guns, handcannons and match-locks. Early chinese firearms have been dated to the 12th century 900 years ago. Personal firearms in Europe date to the 14th century.
Also, your earlier claim that most martial arts instructors discourage or even forbid studying other styles certainly doesn't hold up under my experience. I have trained under 5 different martial arts instructors in 4 different forms. Every one of them encouraged cross-training in other styles and even with other instructors in the same form. I know specifically that 3 of them direct their students who have achieved the standing of "black-belt" to take at least 1 year off to train under another style or instructor and return to teach what they've learned. My current instructor has at least a dozen students who came to him with black-belts in other styles or other schools. They wear their belts from their other school and are shown the respect of their rank while working through the ranks of his school. He periodically brings in instructors from other schools and styles to "guest instruct" class for the benefit of his students, and encourages such instructors to pass out business cards to attending students. No, my experience isn't exaustive, and it's possible that "most" instructors do discourage learning from multiple instructors or styles, but the statement doesn't ring true with me.
Boghog1
NES Member
It's in the wrong forum.
The Guide to U.S. Army Survival Skills
Published by, Fall River press 2009
Chapter 3-6... H2H and Knife Tactics .p.529 -- p. 655
Ranger Handbook,
SH 21-76 United States Army
Not for the weak
or fainthearted
RANGER TRAINING BRIGADE
UNITED STATES ARMY INFANTRY SCHOOL
FORT BENNING, GEORGIA
JULY 2006
Chapter 14-4
Close Quarter Combat.
SERE....Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape.
The U.S. Armed Forces have combatives as part of their Survival training. Many, on the other hand put gardening, farming, and all catchalls in that same category. REALLY?
That stuff should be under the heading “Homes and Gardens”. Wait it already is at Home Depot...
( No disrespect folks, I have a garden and love it.).
Bro you know what I think? I think many make survival MAINSTREAM, what you need to do is take a day trip down to Paris Island or Bragg and tell the DI's you think gardening should be in their survival training,.
Now…Likes and dislikes of the article please..
Published by, Fall River press 2009
Chapter 3-6... H2H and Knife Tactics .p.529 -- p. 655
Ranger Handbook,
SH 21-76 United States Army
Not for the weak
or fainthearted
RANGER TRAINING BRIGADE
UNITED STATES ARMY INFANTRY SCHOOL
FORT BENNING, GEORGIA
JULY 2006
Chapter 14-4
Close Quarter Combat.
SERE....Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape.
The U.S. Armed Forces have combatives as part of their Survival training. Many, on the other hand put gardening, farming, and all catchalls in that same category. REALLY?
That stuff should be under the heading “Homes and Gardens”. Wait it already is at Home Depot...
( No disrespect folks, I have a garden and love it.).
Bro you know what I think? I think many make survival MAINSTREAM, what you need to do is take a day trip down to Paris Island or Bragg and tell the DI's you think gardening should be in their survival training,.
Now…Likes and dislikes of the article please..
Boghog1
NES Member
Please note resistance is a separate sub heading, also note this is not a military organization even though many of us have served. Have you ever served?
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Your article was interesting in that it is something I am not familiar with outside of the basics I was taught. It seemed rather verbose though and not really in laymans terms.
SERE training is a whole different animal. We arent dealing with having to escape from enemy soldiers and withstand interrogation. We will most likely deal with being lost in the woods. If you are preparing for your global nuclear meltdown, econ doomsday great. It is going to take a lot more than a 10 yo 2 page article to prep for that.
I can site a number of actual survival situations where H2H wouldnt matter at all. The rugby team in alive for one. The folks who spent a couple of weeks trapped in their car in the mountains. The people in adrift. The Endurance expedition. The Donner Party. Etc etc etc.
There is a training techniques forum. Why not use it.
SERE training is a whole different animal. We arent dealing with having to escape from enemy soldiers and withstand interrogation. We will most likely deal with being lost in the woods. If you are preparing for your global nuclear meltdown, econ doomsday great. It is going to take a lot more than a 10 yo 2 page article to prep for that.
I can site a number of actual survival situations where H2H wouldnt matter at all. The rugby team in alive for one. The folks who spent a couple of weeks trapped in their car in the mountains. The people in adrift. The Endurance expedition. The Donner Party. Etc etc etc.
There is a training techniques forum. Why not use it.
Boghog1
NES Member
And you know what it is less likely to get cluttered up with extraneous stuff in that forum, there have been some great articles posted over there
coastie wrote: “Your article was interesting in that it is something I am not familiar with outside of the basics I was taught.”
That’s the problem folks think because they have a little basic training they know. Training methods evolve, that’s why I was brought to Q-town to get the instructors up to speed with new concepts.
“SERE training is a whole different animal. We arent dealing with having to escape from enemy soldiers and withstand interrogation.”
You couldn’t be fUrther from the truth. Home invasion, carjacking, hostage control are more frequent then you know or that the media lets out. Don’t for one minute think that gangs like MS-13, Crips, bloods, you know the rest don’t consider themselves as street soldiers. People say it would never happen to me, or this is a nice neighborhood…Wrong!!! The shit happens everywhere.
“There is a training techniques forum. Why not use it.”
First people need to know why they would even want to go to a techniques forum? This is a start.
Timber exactly. That’s why I’m here. I tell martial Artists, to prep and don’t think just because you can fight ever thing is fine, many don’t know how to make shelters, trap, hell some don’t even know how to load a gun…they will be f**ked. Diversify and explore ALL the issues.
I agree with you not depending on just H2H or knife for defense. It is said that 99% of all close quarter fights end up on the ground, and with environmental conditions, low lighting, unsettled terrain, weather and so on, I would have to kinda agree. Here is an article in Combat Handguns by Ed Lovette dealing with those issues.
About the Author: Ed Lovette is a retired Captain in the U.S Army Special Forces a 15 year retired CIA operative and now a Freelance writer.
http://combathandgunsp1.homestead.com/combathandgundp1.html
That’s the problem folks think because they have a little basic training they know. Training methods evolve, that’s why I was brought to Q-town to get the instructors up to speed with new concepts.
“SERE training is a whole different animal. We arent dealing with having to escape from enemy soldiers and withstand interrogation.”
You couldn’t be fUrther from the truth. Home invasion, carjacking, hostage control are more frequent then you know or that the media lets out. Don’t for one minute think that gangs like MS-13, Crips, bloods, you know the rest don’t consider themselves as street soldiers. People say it would never happen to me, or this is a nice neighborhood…Wrong!!! The shit happens everywhere.
“There is a training techniques forum. Why not use it.”
First people need to know why they would even want to go to a techniques forum? This is a start.
Timber exactly. That’s why I’m here. I tell martial Artists, to prep and don’t think just because you can fight ever thing is fine, many don’t know how to make shelters, trap, hell some don’t even know how to load a gun…they will be f**ked. Diversify and explore ALL the issues.
I agree with you not depending on just H2H or knife for defense. It is said that 99% of all close quarter fights end up on the ground, and with environmental conditions, low lighting, unsettled terrain, weather and so on, I would have to kinda agree. Here is an article in Combat Handguns by Ed Lovette dealing with those issues.
About the Author: Ed Lovette is a retired Captain in the U.S Army Special Forces a 15 year retired CIA operative and now a Freelance writer.
http://combathandgunsp1.homestead.com/combathandgundp1.html
Sorry but you need to do a little bit of reading.
The USAF SERE School was for the longest time called Survival Training and still is by the older instructors and students because they all like to say "I Survived" as a play on words. Hell, there are even shirts, stickers and other swag out there to say they "Survived"
With the AF SERE School in the Pacific Northwest I can tell you first hand that in the '80's and '90's that we were cautious of being grouped in with the "extreme survivalists" that were giving bad names to what we would call Preppers. You may have heard of the severe misunderstanding and disaster Ruby Ridge incident?
In the SERE the R is certainly to with the Code of Conduct Training and how it applies to soldier, (any branch of service - Officer or Enlisted) who finds themselves in a survival situation. When my Survival Instructor arch was on my uniform people got the wrong idea. Then it was Survival Specialist and it was still confusing so the AF joined the other armed forces and called the schools/courses SERE. SERE is made up of numerous schools depending on your AFSC/MOS.
To end my $.02 the best way to Resist is to Evade and Escape and "Return with Honor". If you choose to kill instead of remain hidden you will be found out and have a real good chance to understand what Resistance means.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/codeofconduct2.htm
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D
Deleted member 12999
Yeah... You know it sucks when you start throwing stuff around like SERE, and one of their instructors shows up.
You got SERvEd
You got SERvEd
What do you mean sucks? it's great he is hear
SERE Thanks for the detailed explanation. I have not worked with the Air Force, what was your H2H/knife training consisting of? I know the Army uses a MMA footprint now thanks to Matt Lawson and the Marines use a similar one with the MCMAP, what did the Air force use?
What sucks is when people want to talk, complain, question, disrespect and insult, and then not have the balls to come train with me. Ya know the nice thing about training with big, bad veteran specialists?
They jump to the chance to try out their shit on me where folks on line tend to well...... Not.
Out 4 the weekend ...gone fishing...;-)
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![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Palladin
NES Member
Yep.
I was actually quoting Pale Rider.
Win
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