The average cop isn't that great of a shooter...

[allen-1]

Brief article copied entirely from: https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/

People have a hard time processing the fact that these two statements are not mutually exclusive:

1. The average LEO isn't that great of a shooter.
   
2. The average LEO is a much better shooter than the average private citizen gun owner.
   

You and your buddies in your squad waiting for the stage to be reset at a Saturday morning USPSA or IDPA match (or standing around waiting on the safety briefing at a Langdon Tactical or Sentinel Concepts class) are not a representative cross-section of the average private citizen gun owner.

Yes, the one cop on your squad might be catching a ribbing for not doing so good this morning, but drop him into the line at the public indoor range across town and he will be a veritable shooting demigod by comparison.

And those people at the public range represent the...oh, I'd guess ~30% of private citizen gun owners who can even be arsed to get out and shoot their guns more than once per year.

Fortunately, the majority of private citizen defensive gun usages aren't real complicated from a shooting standpoint.

 

[SKumar]

I can make sense of that. I see too many people that don't have a purpose/agenda when at the range, so their range time becomes more "pleasure" instead of training. LE actually train (double taps, malfunctions, quick draw, etc.).

 

[Jonny5]

I can make sense of that. I see too many people that don't have a purpose/agenda when at the range, so their range time becomes more "pleasure" instead of training. LE actually train (double taps, malfunctions, quick draw, etc.).

Do most LE actually 'train' or simply proceed through yearly standing/still target qual tests? Is there a training guideline on what MA/RI/New England LEOs must accomplish on a yearly basis with firearms training?

 

[nstassel]

In my experience cops are generally not competent with guns. Most were kids that grew up in the city and never were exposed to guns. I've known cops who dislike shooting and laugh that they barely qualify when required to. I knew an "expert" ballistician that didn't know the difference between a single and double action semi auto pistol. Only specially trained unit cops really can be presumed to be proficient I think.

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[Knob Creek]

Cops have guns so they must be experts on firearms and marksmanship. They are also computer programers because they use one. And they can also qualify for the pole position at the Indy 500 because they drive a car.

 

[usp45ct]

In my experience cops are generally not competent with guns. Most were kids that grew up in the city and never were exposed to guns. I've known cops who dislike shooting and laugh that they barely qualify when required to. I knew an "expert" ballistician that didn't know the difference between a single and double action semi auto pistol. Only specially trained unit cops really can be presumed to be proficient I think.

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this x1000.

...and the higher or older the cop gets, the less farmiliar they tend to be. Had two esteemed LEOs, husband and wife, from a major city in FL. They were looking at my collection. The 30 year just retired SGTmust have muzzle swept everyone in the room, (me, his wife and his son) a dozen times until I took it away. His wife, an LT with 26 years on the job, couldn’t pull back the slide to chear it. She was pretty sure what she was holding was what they carried, it was a USP45CT. I laughed and said I doubt it. We looked it up, they carry sig 320s.

in fact, I am sure if you asked these 2, they would state they are very proficient, just not gun nuts. I say they are the reason I feel most cops are more dangerous than average citizens, because they are over confident.

 

[hillman]

In my experience cops are generally not competent with guns. Most were kids that grew up in the city and never were exposed to guns. I've known cops who dislike shooting and laugh that they barely qualify when required to. I knew an "expert" ballistician that didn't know the difference between a single and double action semi auto pistol. Only specially trained unit cops really can be presumed to be proficient I think.

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The first time I qualified as a part time officer, it was with a pistol I picked up that morning and had never shot before. I only had two magazines so I had to keep loose rounds in my pocket and frantically reload my magazines when the instructor would be lining out one of the other guys. I was also the only one to qualify with a revolver as a bug. I thought the qual. course was ridiculously easy.

Of the seven officers present, only I and the Lt. managed to qualify the first time. Even the Captain failed. She failed so many times they sent the rest of us home and kept her there so they could make sure she "passed".

You will never convince me that the average cop is any better than the average gun owner after what I've seen.

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[Saltydog]

Sometimes it just ain't the "average" cop that can't shoot....

Many years ago, a club I belonged to held an annual Night Combat Shoot, Friday night for club members and Saturday night for LEO's. The course of fire was the same for both shoots:

6 rds. @ 7 yrds. in 10 sec. total darkness
12 rds. @15 yrds. in 30 sec. with flaslights
18 rds. @25 yrds. in 60 sec. with cruiser strobes on behind the firing line

Not too difficult, lots of time, big fun. The top three shooters on Friday night get to compete against the cops on Saturday night. I managed to win the event on Friday night with a 348/360 and was looking forward to picking up some tips from the "professionals" on Saturday night.

Before the Saturday night shoot begins, a sergeant from a local SWAT Team announces HE is the top gun and will kick everybodys butt including "the snot nose civilians who dare to compete with the elite" (his exact quote).

We are called to the firing line for the first course 6rd. @7 yrds in total darkness. The firing line is set up with B27 targets placed on every other shooting position to provide additional seperation and safety. Each target is illuminated with a flood light during the command to load and make ready. Once guns are loaded and holstered, the lights go out for 15 sec. after which the command is given to fire. Well as luck would have it, Sgt. Hondo was to my right and on the fire command he draws and starts blastin' away with full house .357 mags with 4 ft. muzzle flashes/ flames and emplties his gun in under 2 sec. Before the shoot, my old boss, who was an USN S-2 carrier pilot, gave me some tips on how to maintain my night vision and before the fire command was given I could see the X ring clear as day. As soon as Hondos first shot went off, I did mange to get my eyess shut quick and waited until he was empty before opening them, getting the front site on the X ring and getting my six shoots off before the cease fire command at 10 sec.

The lights came up and the command to unload, make safe, holster and move forward to check/score targets was made by the range officer, I looked at my target and had five in the X ring and one just outside into the 10 ring. I glanced over at Hondo's target and well.... Not only did he not have any holes in the scoring rings, he didn't have any on the entire target which is 48" by 36" !!! AT 7 YARDS !! AND HE'S a SWAT GUY !!

He looked over at my target and announced that he must have shot at the wrong target (another confidence builder in a hostage situation) and those five holes in the X ring were his!! Sorry Sarge, there were only 6 holes the target not 12. He stomped off the line and left the competition.

I did manage to finish third proving there were indeed some "professional" LEO's there that night who could really shoot.

Saltydog

 

[Dennis in MA]

Cops have guns so they must be experts on firearms and marksmanship. They are also computer programers because they use one. And they can also qualify for the pole position at the Indy 500 because they drive a car.

And they can put Dr. Phil and Alan Dershowitz out of business with their psychology and legal minds. They aren't doctors, but they'd give Doogie Howzer a run for his money. . . . and they can compete in the Summer Olympics but don't because it would look like showing off.

Reality is that a police officer has about 18 jobs to do. Some are gonna be better at some parts than others. I enjoy guns. I always assume I know more than the officer I'm speaking with about his firearm. I'm also in finance. I'll make that same assumption about the officer's knowledge of the intricacies of a 401(k) vs. 403(b) plan.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The first time I qualified as a part time officer, it was with a pistol I picked up that morning and had never shot before. I only had two magazines so I had to keep loose rounds in my pocket and frantically reload my magazines when the instructor would be lining out one of the other guys. I was also the only one to qualify with a revolver as a bug. I thought the qual. course was ridiculously easy.

Of the seven officers present, only I and the Lt. managed to qualify the first time. Even the Captain failed. She failed so many times they sent the rest of us home and kept her there so they could make sure she "passed".

You will never convince me that the average cop is any better than the average gun owner after what I've seen.

I'm no crack shot, but I can relate. When my chief asked us (part time officers) if we owned 9mm semi-autos to bring them to the range and qualify with them as well as the revolver (standard issue and only authorized gun to carry on the job), I owned a used S&W 39, no dedicated holster and no mag pouches. It was the 3rd time I ever shot that gun and my qual with it was 95/100 even shocking myself. Many officers (both full-time and part-time) had problems qualifying with both the revolver and semi-autos over the years. They refuse to practice and only fired 50 or 100 rds/year for qual (used to be twice/year reduced to once due to costs).

 

[kmanick]

I know a few cops who are lousy shots, they don't like to shoot, yet I know a couple of corrections officers that are snipers

 

[DPR]

I'm not surprised that they don't practice more. It's not a as if they are going to jail if they miss and hit a good guy.

 

[drgrant]

Depends on what you're using as a qualifier as the "average LEO". I think this varies depending on department.

Some PDs, the average LEO is at least equivalent to "joe shoots 2 boxes every third sunday" handgun guy, other PDs, joe would basically hand the LEO his ass on a silver platter, especially those "I only shoot enough to qual" ...

Then in some PDs, you'll have a few switched on LEOs that "know what a shot timer is" and have varying levels of skill from intermediate on up.

-Mike

 

[Dennis in MA]

The odds an officer needing his gun (versus hands-on skills) is pretty low. It's SERIOUS, but as a likelihood, the mental calculus weighs to working on other skills if there is time.

Skills like dunking an old-fashioned donut in your open coffee while taking a right hand turn with lights and sirens on. (KIDDING! My dad used to be able to drive with an open cup of coffee, donut, driving a 1981 VW Rabbit manual transmission, which was more truck-like than car-like. He shoulda been a cop. LOL)

 

[Uzi2]

Having fired on a MA. range with actual classes of new recruits and veteran cops qualifications, I can unequivocally state that cops are some of the worst shots I've ever seen with handguns. Had I bet a dollar per shot on "the tree", I'd have walked out with pockets full of money.

 

[sigfanboy13]

One of the old timers at my range always tells the story of an officer when told to unload his sidearm. Racked the slide 17times.....

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[MassPete]

One of the old timers at my range always tells the story of an officer when told to unload his sidearm. Racked the slide 17times.....

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[RAEIndustries]

I'm not surprised that they don't practice more. It's not a as if they are going to jail if they miss and hit a good guy.

So true DPR

 

[The Goose]

I do not really know anything about "average". I do not know many police officers personally and have never watched them train. However, a few years back I took a 2 day snubby revolver class up at the Sig Academy. About half of the class were police officers. There was a guy from PA, 2 were CHP and other locales around the country. I remember that I was impressed that these guys made the trip and took the time to avail themselves of the training opportunity. I don't recall that any of them were substantially more skilled, but they were certainly training seriously.

 

[In God We Trust]

In my experience this is a NES myth. I've been to the range many times with cops and they are better shots (for the most part) than the non cops I know.

You guys that shoot IDPA or whatever are of course going to be an exception, but I've only known of 2 cops who would have to shoot more than once at qualification time.

I know it's fun bash cops and act like professional operators, but it just isn't true.

The stats you guys pull out of your asses are from actual self defense shootings where the cops miss more than they hit. If someone can find stats of regular Joes hit to miss ratio during SD shootings, I would bet the USPCA shooter would not be much different.

The reasons why should be obvious and need no explanation.

 

[bsimardjr]

I check out club members who want unrestricted access to our 50’ indoor range at a club that I belong too. The checkout consists of going over the range rules and watching them shoot. There was a member in his twenties that’s an officer for a local town that came to be checked out one night. When it came time for him to shoot he put 15 rounds of 9mm downrange at a B-39 target which is a 50ft international target probably 14” square. The target came back clean, not a hole in it. I gave him access to the range as he obviously needed the practice.

 

[mikelawtown]

In my experience this is a NES myth. I've been to the range many times with cops and they are better shots (for the most part) than the non cops I know.

You guys that shoot IDPA or whatever are of course going to be an exception, but I've only known of 2 cops who would have to shoot more than once at qualification time.

I know it's fun bash cops and act like professional operators, but it just isn't true.

The stats you guys pull out of your asses are from actual self defense shootings where the cops miss more than they hit. If someone can find stats of regular Joes hit to miss ratio during SD shootings, I would bet the USPCA shooter would not be much different.

The reasons why should be obvious and need no explanation.

S
Sorry but it's true. Maybe not you or a few at the dept you are at but remember he said "Average". I have seen it many times over and over and I do not shoot IDPA. My inlaws between them have 50 years in and suck bad. Qualification is sub par in most police training. We have 125 cops in town and maybe 10 can shoot, that's not good in my book when it's a valuable part of the job

 

[drgrant]

In my experience this is a NES myth. I've been to the range many times with cops and they are better shots (for the most part) than the non cops I know.

You guys that shoot IDPA or whatever are of course going to be an exception, but I've only known of 2 cops who would have to shoot more than once at qualification time.

I know it's fun bash cops and act like professional operators, but it just isn't true.

The stats you guys pull out of your asses are from actual self defense shootings where the cops miss more than they hit. If someone can find stats of regular Joes hit to miss ratio during SD shootings, I would bet the USPCA shooter would not be much different.

The reasons why should be obvious and need no explanation.

I've seen both sides of the coin but its hardly a myth. Also your sample is self selected- cops at the range on their own volition are usually a cut above.

 

[mac1911]

Do most LE actually 'train' or simply proceed through yearly standing/still target qual tests? Is there a training guideline on what MA/RI/New England LEOs must accomplish on a yearly basis with firearms training?

i see some leo's "train" at my club. I will not say it actually makes them better shooters but it satisfies the training requirements sort of like our little training cert in mass to get a gun permit.
I personally do not know any leos that go "shooting" or "compete" in firearms related activities. If they are I dont know they are LEO. Im also one of those that do not ask people what they do for a living. At the club I talk guns and food.

 

[appraiser]

I have been saying that the majority of cops are not proficient or even expert with their firearms.

This is nothing against cops ( we can have a whole other thread on that) but the reality is back in the good old days, most police stations had a range in the basement, .38 Special ammo was cheap, and they could practice frequently.

Come 198X, Prop 2 1/2 comes in, there is no money for OT for shooting practice, extra ammo, and the concern about lead exposure comes into play and all of the little basement ranges, like the one my Dad and I both shot on are closed....

SO everyone packs up and heads for Camp Curtis Guild..... ooops a few stray rounds from unknown sources and live fire is a no no.

Then there are simulator trailers, in Middlesex County compliments of Sheriff Jim.

So the amount of practice time, just shooting at paper goes to near zero.

Now we can go into why Officers are not trained in tactical situations.

Cops are human too ( contrary to popular belief) and when they draw and aim while their adrenaline is pumping, their first shot may be low because they pull the trigger before getting fully on target.

It takes quite a bit of practice to hesitate for that split second to get the gun level and on target.

If you are shooting twice a year at paper targets in a stress free environment, you are not proficient.

 

[commodon]

I'm no crack shot, but I can relate. When my chief asked us (part time officers) if we owned 9mm semi-autos to bring them to the range and qualify with them as well as the revolver (standard issue and only authorized gun to carry on the job), I owned a used S&W 39, no dedicated holster and no mag pouches. It was the 3rd time I ever shot that gun and my qual with it was 95/100 even shocking myself. Many officers (both full-time and part-time) had problems qualifying with both the revolver and semi-autos over the years. They refuse to practice and only fired 50 or 100 rds/year for qual (used to be twice/year reduced to once due to costs).

Your experience sounds exactly like that of my own when I was on in 1989. Except my duty weapon was the S&W 66-2. In fact, I think I shot a 95 as well. Too funny.

 

[Dadstoys]

If we're talking "Average" then it's true.
There are always a couple of "Gun guys" on most departments the rest run the scale from kinda proficient to downright scary .
I've been on the range with them and several times I considered standing in front of the target to get out of harms way.
I've taught a few, and just pounded it into their heads that this is a perishable skill, don't make someone coming knocking on your door some night and have to give your wife and kids the bad news because you always had something better to do.
One guy who my Dad taught, I actually ran into years later and we got talking .
He told me that he always remembered what my Dad taught him and it stuck with him.
Made me kind of proud.

 

[Glockster30]

Cops have guns so they must be experts on firearms and marksmanship. They are also computer programers because they use one. And they can also qualify for the pole position at the Indy 500 because they drive a car.

Since some ride horses, they can also race for the Triple Crown at the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont Stakes.

 

[fencer]

There was a police supply store in the strip mall next to my shop for years. One day a uniformed officer came in and we started shooting the breeze. He was the COP in a Rhode Island town.
He told me he hates guns and only carries because he has to. He said he never carries when not on duty and told me that he leaves his firearm in his desk every night when he goes home. Doesn't want it in the house.
So I asked " How do you qualify?" He said, "With this" and he pulled his pen out of his pocket. He claimed that he would simply poke holes in the paper target with his pen.
So I asked him, " Why didn't you just become a fire fighter?" He said the cops make more and get more overtime. I thought he was crazy. Lots of people dislike leo's. I'd be damned if I would leave my gun at work.

On my town's department there are a few cops that shoot, but most do not. Some collect their 200 rounds a month and sell it.

 

[Sig Sauer Shooter]

The cops in my town use the indoor and outdoor ranges at my club for qualifications, the concrete floor takes a beating that week......