Not an NES myth, I've seen it first hand many times and the subject has been written up in firearms publications occasionally for decades. Its nothing new and still the same as it always has been.
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The average cop isn't that great of a shooter...
- Thread starter allen-1
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Not an NES myth, I've seen it first hand many times and the subject has been written up in firearms publications occasionally for decades. Its nothing new and still the same as it always has been.
Back when the second Bob owned Bob's tactical, my Dad and I stopped in one day and the range had skid marks on the floor and the walls. holes in the ceiling tiles and ductwork.
the old man says wtf happened here.
Bob just said, cops![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
the old man says wtf happened here.
Bob just said, cops
It's true, we've had IDPA shoots at the Monument Beach Sportsmans Club, Entergy came in first, we came in second, then the local PD's followed us. The second shoot we came in first, Entergy second. Kudos to Entergy though, they train 5 days a week at our club, they have their own range.
dhuze
NES Member
A couple of the local town use our range for training every year. We just approved a local PD to use our range for training, this includes some night training. No department that I’m aware of actually uses our ranges for qualifications.
This is actual training and not target shooting. I have watched them train on other occasions and I watched them do things that I think would only end up with them getting shot, but that’s not my business. They were doing everything safely I just thought they did things that exposed them way too much for the circumstance they were training for.
As far as being bad shots, I can verify this many times. I’m actually amazed at how many times I have seen them fail to qualify to use our indoor range when all you have to do is hit an Army L target 5 out of 5 shots at 35 feet.
My son in law is a local cop and he says he is one of only a couple who actually shoot other than qualifications. They are also given ammo every month if they want it to practice. He says he gets more than anyone because they don’t shoot it so he does.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, I qualify/train 'officially' up to 4x as much as any local LEO agency within 100 miles of any place I've lived and worked.
Cops are a cross section of society. Some are gun guys, some are 'active gun guys', I'd bet most don't even carry off duty. Keep repeating that until it sinks in. :/ Cops aren't some mystic beings, especially local LEOs, look around, what you see are who your cops are.
BREWINZ
NES Member
My brother is an instructor for the NH state police. I've been to his classes and watched him oversee qualifying. It's truly sad. Most guys don't shoot at all until they have to keep their job. I'll take an LEO trade in any day. It's likely to have less than 200 rounds through it.
Varmint
NES Member
I don't know anything about cops' shooting profiency, but I know the stuff I do at work, i don't want to do when I'm not working. It reminds me of work. So I'm not surprised if most cops don't want to practice in their free time.
Umm...do you understand the word 'average'? That is the qualifier.
Of course it varies. Which is why, you know, they are using the average.
![[slap]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/025.gif "Slap [slap]")
Varmint
NES Member
NYC cops are really in a class of their own.
Those horrible 12 pound NY-2 triggers they're forced to have doesn't help either.
allen-1
NES Member
I believe this was the point of the article. It wasn't comparing cops to people who shoot IDPA/USPSA, it was comparing cops to the AVERAGE GUN OWNER...
I figure that I'm a better shot than the AVERAGE COP. I'm a better shot than the AVERAGE GUN OWNER too.
I generally shoot a couple times a week, I shoot IDPA, USPSA, 3Gun, plates, pins, a little skeet. I'm not your "average gun owner", I'm an um, "enthusiast" yeah, that's the term. That just sounds so much better than "right wing gun nut".
That reminds me of that story where some guy blew his boss' brains out in times square then ran. The cops shot 6 people trying to hit the perp. The media blew it up as a mass shooting until they realized the cops did most of it. The story disappeared pretty quick.They're also "severely limited" to 15-rd mags in their G17![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
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Cops that hang out on gun forums, go to social shoots, belong to gun clubs, practice on their own, buy their own guns because they like them, etc. are not AVERAGE! Cops that will attend Front Sight, Sig Academy, Gunsite, etc. are not average even if their department is picking up the expenses. They are all enthusiasts like us.
As someone who is friendly with a lot of cops, served as one for a lot of years, qualified with my own group as well as with MCJTC/MPTC (everyone else was a FT paid cop), etc. I have seen it first hand.
I've offered a number of police chiefs and officers to bring them to my clubs as my guests so that they can practice over many years. Not one has taken me up on it.
The average cop looks at the gun as another accessory on the bat belt, just a tool like the radio, baton, etc. During the 17 years I served under 3 chiefs only 2 FT POs carried on a regular/semi-regular basis off-duty.
Those that practice more than the required qualification once/twice per year will be more proficient than others. There just aren't a lot of them out there. Those on special squads (SWAT, etc.) practice a lot more frequently as part of the job.
BTW. everyday gun owners are no different. Most buy a few guns and they collect dust most of the year. They don't belong to gun clubs, they have one or two boxes of ammo at any one time, etc. I don't remember the latest stat on LTC holders in MA, so let's use 300K as a ballpark round number . . . there are ~200 (round number) gun clubs in MA, that would mean on average there should be ~1K+ members per club. Yet there are only a handful of clubs in MA that approach or exceed that number. Since shooting is a perishable skill, it tells you that the vast majority don't practice and don't have a place to go to practice.
As someone who is friendly with a lot of cops, served as one for a lot of years, qualified with my own group as well as with MCJTC/MPTC (everyone else was a FT paid cop), etc. I have seen it first hand.
I've offered a number of police chiefs and officers to bring them to my clubs as my guests so that they can practice over many years. Not one has taken me up on it.
The average cop looks at the gun as another accessory on the bat belt, just a tool like the radio, baton, etc. During the 17 years I served under 3 chiefs only 2 FT POs carried on a regular/semi-regular basis off-duty.
Those that practice more than the required qualification once/twice per year will be more proficient than others. There just aren't a lot of them out there. Those on special squads (SWAT, etc.) practice a lot more frequently as part of the job.
BTW. everyday gun owners are no different. Most buy a few guns and they collect dust most of the year. They don't belong to gun clubs, they have one or two boxes of ammo at any one time, etc. I don't remember the latest stat on LTC holders in MA, so let's use 300K as a ballpark round number . . . there are ~200 (round number) gun clubs in MA, that would mean on average there should be ~1K+ members per club. Yet there are only a handful of clubs in MA that approach or exceed that number. Since shooting is a perishable skill, it tells you that the vast majority don't practice and don't have a place to go to practice.
I thought the point of the article was "don't make cops cry at USPSA matches"
I have seen cops on details that are carrying smaller weapons than the full sized G17, G22 or other weapon they usually haul around.
No Cop could be that dumb to be standing out there as a target without the ability to defend themselves
No Cop could be that dumb to be standing out there as a target without the ability to defend themselves
Dennis in MA
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I gets better. . . . IT WAS A REVOLVER!!!!!!!
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
I'm here all week. Call your mother. LOL
allen-1
NES Member
I shot an IDPA match last weekend at my local club. One of the younger guys shooting on my squad listed as LE and Military. He was using a G19 with an IWB and out of 41 shooters came in 14th. I think this was his second IDPA match. We shot five stages, and the final was an El Presidente, but started facing down range. I suggested to him that he slow down a hair and make his shots count. He did. I could see it in his shooting. 3 targets, 2 on each, mandatory reload, then 2 on each again. He shot in in 12 and change, with a total of 1 down.
Some cops are also enthusiasts and can shoot quite well.
Oh yeah - I beat him.
But my son beat me. I need to slow down and shoot more accurately, way too many down 3's.
That brings up a point. I wonder how many cylinder pins back in the day were bent due to "cowboying" the cylinder close.I gets better. . . . IT WAS A REVOLVER!!!!!!!
I'm here all week. Call your mother. LOL
Also because I can't quote well on the phone. Allen-1 how does one prep for competition. I want to start, but I want to start with some footing instead of winging it.
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Just show up to a match and tell them you are new. They will help you out. Competition shooters are some of the most helpfully people when it comes to new shooters
Its the enthusiast part that makes the difference.
You don't need to slow down, you just need to shoot more accurately. they are independent of each other. Once you realize that, it really opens doors in your shooting
allen-1
NES Member
Find a local range that they shoot IDPA at and watch a match. Bring eyes and ears, and make yourself useful, help tape. Show up early enough to listen to the briefing. That and googling for youtube should give you the fundamentals of how a match is run. Then pick up some basic gear. For IDPA you'll need a holster, preferably outside the waistband, three mags and two mag carriers. Don't bother buying anything you don't have to until you figure out what you like, try to use what you have.
Then go shoot a level-1 (club), match. Most level 1 matches are welcoming to first-timers.
If you understand the fundamentals, and pay attention to safety protocols, you'll be fine.
Key safety protocols for IDPA -
1) Most matches have cold ranges. Find out, and if so, don't show up with a loaded weapon. Handle your firearm only at a safe table. Don't bring ammo to the safe table. This is something you can find out by watching a match.
2) 180 rule - don't point your gun up range
3) don't muzzle anyone - including yourself
4) keep your finger off the trigger except while actively shooting
The rest of the rules are really match engagement rules, not safety. You break a rule, you get dinged for score. Break one of the safety rules above and you can get disqualified.
Then there's USPSA. It's similar to IDPA, but different. IDPA is kinda - go to this shooting point, shoot these targets in this sequence, then go to this point... USPSA is more like - here's your shooting area, there are your targets, have at it.
Generally speaking, all paper gets two shots, all steel must fall. Unless the stage description says otherwise.
I'd start with IDPA, but that's perhaps personal preference. IDPA is more defined, USPSA is more freeform.
I'm sorry, this is really kind of rambling - there's so much that could be said...
allen-1
NES Member
I rushed too many shots. I could feel that I was off on a lot of them. I just needed to take a quarter of a second more to make it a down zero instead of a down three.
nope, you just need to put the sights on the down zero as soon as you can and not worry about the time. Don't ever think about time when shooting and you will end up faster. It frees the mind to watch the sights and press the trigger
dhuze
NES Member
They do this at Hopkinton. You can go there just to watch and talk, or you can bring your gun, a few mags and do a course. Just for the record, nobody cares how slow anybody is. They are there to have fun. All first timers are slow.
Half the time the detail cop is carrying a baby glock or a m&p compact, lots of times in a simple non retention pancake holster. I swear I saw a detail cop carrying a j frame with a green military pistol belt.
Very rarely a less lethal tool (oc spray or baton). Most don’t even carry handcuffs. Almost all of the cops on details have no idea to direct traffic it seems unless they close down a lane on a 2 lane road.
NYPD is unique because the glock is not designed to operate with a double action 12 pound trigger pull.
The Sig P226 they use is not a DAK it’s some modified “DAO” sig.
Finally they also are allowed the S&W 5946 DAO which is the only DAO gun designed as a DAO off the shelf. This handgun is no longer made and most NYPD officers carrying this seem to maybe understand guns a little more as A lot of ESU swat team officers carry this gun.
NYPD from my understanding doesn’t encourage or make fire arms training accessible outside qualifications for regular uniformed police officers.
Used to shoot at the outdoor range in Lawrence. Local PD used the range as well. A few of the guys were excellent. Really really good. A few not so good. I am not a good shooter, so when I go, I am trying to practice, and take it very seriously. Also, it is my $ I am sending downrange, so I am not cavalier about it. It seemed like to the PD guys, it was the same as a night out of bowling, just no beer at the same time. The guys who didn't shoot well didn't really take it seriously, not trying to improve, or so it seemed. Also wasn't their $ for the ammo, so not sure they really cared.
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