Storing a shotgun for a friend

[Beretta92FS]

A friend of mine completed his hunters ed class this weekend, and will take his LTC safety class on Thursday. Obviously he will not get his LTC in time to purchase his own shotgun in time for turkey hunting, and I cannot buy one for him with the intent of selling it to him later since that would be an illegal straw purchase.

But, can he buy a pump shotgun in NH, and I hold on to the receiver while it is in MA (he keeps the barrel), and I bring the receiver when we go hunting together in NH? Once he gets his LTC he can then take possession of the receiver and FA-10 register it.

Would this be legal? I'm not trying to circumvent any laws, just want a friend to be able to use his own shotgun for hunting while waiting for the LTC to come in.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

My head hurts from reading this. Just bring another shotgun for him to use.

 

[milktree]

No dealer will sell him a shotgun without an LTC, even in NH. The FFL is required to check that the purchase wouldn't be illegal in his home state, and since he doesn't have a MA LTC, the NH dealer won't sell it to him.

 

[MisterHappy]

My head hurts from reading this. Just bring another shotgun for him to use.

Best answer.

Mike wins the internet, for today.

BTW, if it was a Mass. Hunter Ed course, he can use that to apply for his LTC per MGL:

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131P


Not saying that he should not take an additional class - it's needed by those that are not "in the gun culture" to begin with - but it's not required for him.

 

[slap shot]

you're passing up a really great opportunity to buy a new shotgun. whether you sell it to him later or not, or just let him borrow it, is really your business

 

[Snora]

The only evidence of this scenario being a straw purchase is you posting it here. There's nothing unusual about buying a gun and selling it to a friend with a valid license months later.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

The only evidence of this scenario being a straw purchase is you posting it here. There's nothing unusual about buying a gun and selling it to a friend with a valid license months later.

This. Jack.

 

[tripletaco]

People are so wrapped up in this straw purchase thing. Doesnt a straw purchase really only apply when a firearms is bought and then supplied to a person otherwise PROHIBITED from possessing a firearm? If you buy a firearm today, whose to say what your intention is? Its not illegal to sell that firearm to a friend (not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm) a year later...a month later...a week later....

 

[42!]

IANAL
Intent is what you plan on doing under the current conditions. If you friend does not have a lisence your intent is to keep the shotgun. If at some point in the future your fried gets a license and offers to buy the shotgun you might sell it to him. But no one can predict the future. Those that have run afoul of the law made some overt action showing their intent was not to keep it (statements specifically saying they were buying it for another, receiving a check before buying the gun with a memo saying it was for the gun).

Of course your post is an overt action showing intent, so you were good until you posted

 

[Len-2A Training]

People are so wrapped up in this straw purchase thing. Doesnt a straw purchase really only apply when a firearms is bought and then supplied to a person otherwise PROHIBITED from possessing a firearm? If you buy a firearm today, whose to say what your intention is? Its not illegal to sell that firearm to a friend (not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm) a year later...a month later...a week later....

Nope, tell that to the police officer who was convicted by the Feds for this. He even transferred it to a relative via an FFL and still went down for it.

 

[42!]

Nope, tell that to the police officer who was convicted by the Feds for this. He even transferred it to a relative via an FFL and still went down for it.

Yup, this was the guy who got the check before he purchased the gun, making his intent 100% clear. Without that piece of paper all he had to do was say "I changed my mind" (assuming he didn't also tell everyone).

 

[tripletaco]

Nope, tell that to the police officer who was convicted by the Feds for this. He even transferred it to a relative via an FFL and still went down for it.

Im not arguing. Im sure you know better than me. Thats crazy though. In this case where the gun was transferred through and FFL. One would think, how could that be illegal? Of course when did gun laws ever make sense.

So, I guess the key factor in determining a straw purchase is intent at the time of purchase? And additionally what that intent is able to be proven as.

So...Buy a shotgun (for yourself) and sell it to your friend a month later = OK

Come on the internet and ask if you can buy a shotgun for your friend until he gets his LTC, then sell it to him a month later = NOT OK

 

[n1heu]

First rule of fight club.....

 

[Beretta92FS]

Come on the internet and ask if you can buy a shotgun for your friend until he gets his LTC, then sell it to him a month later = NOT OK

No, that's not the scenario I'm asked about. The question was rather if my friend could buy the shotgun from a NH FFL, and he use it for hunting while in NH. After hunting, I store the receiver for him while he waits for his Mass. LTC to come in.

But the whole question is moot anyway, since as milktree pointed out, no FFL would sell it to him since he could not (yet) legally possess it on his home state.

 

[MisterHappy]

First rule of fight club.....

But, to learn that rule, you have to belong to Fight Club. Otherwise, you won't know it, as they won't tell you. They don't talk about it, after all....

 

[42!]

But, to learn that rule, you have to belong to Fight Club. Otherwise, you won't know it, as they won't tell you. They don't talk about it, after all....

Catch 22 (good book BTW)

 

[dcmdon]

No dealer will sell him a shotgun without an LTC, even in NH. The FFL is required to check that the purchase wouldn't be illegal in his home state, and since he doesn't have a MA LTC, the NH dealer won't sell it to him.

I think the best answer is to just bring a gun for him to use.

With that said, I want to correct the statement above.

Federal law requires that it be legal for you to POSSESS the firearm in your home state.

Its not that you can PURCHASE a firearm in your home state.

This distinction is irrelevant to a MA resident because you need a LTC to even possess a firearm in MA. But it is an ENORMOUS distinction to a CT resident.

CT does not require any licenses of any kind to POSSESS any firearms. Even machine guns. They do however require a Pistol Permit or Long gun certificate to purchase a long gun. The key word being PURCHASE.

As a result of this, it is perfectly legal for a CT resident who does not hold any licenses to purchase a long gun in NH or RI or any other state that doesn't require an out of state person to have a license to possess or transport. Its legal to BUY in NH because its legal to POSSESS in CT without any licenses.

Its funny really. A CT resident can't buy a rifle in CT without a PP.. But he can go to RI and buy that rifle.

This news was BIG among the FUDD community after PA 13-3 passed. Most didn't have any licenses and were appalled to learn (after the law passed and they did nothing because they didn't think it affected them!!!) that they couldn't even buy ammo without a license.

So now they can drive to RI and pick up the 20 rounds of 30-06 they will use over deer season and maybe a new Ruger American for their kid to use.

Don

 

[whacko]

A friend of mine completed his hunters ed class this weekend, and will take his LTC safety class on Thursday. Obviously he will not get his LTC in time to purchase his own shotgun in time for turkey hunting, and I cannot buy one for him with the intent of selling it to him later since that would be an illegal straw purchase.

But, can he buy a pump shotgun in NH, and I hold on to the receiver while it is in MA (he keeps the barrel), and I bring the receiver when we go hunting together in NH? Once he gets his LTC he can then take possession of the receiver and FA-10 register it.

Would this be legal? I'm not trying to circumvent any laws, just want a friend to be able to use his own shotgun for hunting while waiting for the LTC to come in.

If he is a mass resident and over 15 years of age he is not going to legally hunt with a fire arm in mass. Just ask my buddy who tried this and took a deer to the check station during shotgun season........first question the EPO was how did you take this deer........"shotgun" was the answer........ show me your hunting licence and your FID or LTC was question number two. He plead ignorance of course and green suit let him leave..........but told him he was done hunting with a fire arm untill the License comes in.

YUP.....a NH resident can buy a hunting license in mass and bring a gun down during the season legally without an out of state LTC.....or FID.........us subjects of the king of mass cannot.

Kids run into this all the time if they turn 15 in SEP/OCT time frame. They have to wait to legally hunt until the LTC is valid. it sucks.......even on the youth hunts it is up front to the parents that if they child is 15 they need an FID card or they can't participate.

****EDIT**** My reading comprehension skills suck today just noticed you said hunt NH........he'd be fine as long as you have possession of the guns till you get to NH. My B

The rest is for general information then

 

[MisterHappy]

If he is a mass resident and over 15 years of age he is not going to legally hunt with a fire arm in mass. Just ask my buddy who tried this and took a deer to the check station during shotgun season........first question the EPO was how did you take this deer........"shotgun" was the answer........ show me your hunting licence and your FID or LTC was question number two. He plead ignorance of course and green suit let him leave..........but told him he was done hunting with a fire arm untill the License comes in.

YUP.....a NH resident can buy a hunting license in mass and bring a gun down during the season legally without an out of state LTC.....or FID.........us subjects of the king of mass cannot.

Kids run into this all the time if they turn 15 in SEP/OCT time frame. They have to wait to legally hunt until the LTC is valid. it sucks.......even on the youth hunts it is up front to the parents that if they child is 15 they need an FID card or they can't participate.

****EDIT**** My reading comprehension skills suck today just noticed you said hunt NH........he'd be fine as long as you have possession of the guns till you get to NH. My B

The rest is for general information then

At least, they can apply prior to their 15th birthday, now, and it becomes valid on the b-day. Before, you had to wait until you were 15 to apply.

 

[76Too]

buy the shotgun and make him pay you for it...then call the police in his town and tell them he's a sexual predator...then you get to keep the shotgun

 

[dcmdon]

buy the shotgun and make him pay you for it...then call the police in his town and tell them he's a sexual predator...then you get to keep the shotgun

But you are now officially a straw purchaser. If he drops a dime on you, you are in a whole lot more trouble than he is.

;-)

- - - Updated - - -

At least, they can apply prior to their 15th birthday, now, and it becomes valid on the b-day. Before, you had to wait until you were 15 to apply.

So can my 9 year old apply? Ha.

 

[MisterHappy]

No, you have to be 14. That way junior should get it on his b'day. Though there was a thread about a town where it took a guy over a year.....

 

[JAD]

I think the best answer is to just bring a gun for him to use.

With that said, I want to correct the statement above.

Federal law requires that it be legal for you to POSSESS the firearm in your home state.

Its not that you can PURCHASE a firearm in your home state.

This distinction is irrelevant to a MA resident because you need a LTC to even possess a firearm in MA. But it is an ENORMOUS distinction to a CT resident.

CT does not require any licenses of any kind to POSSESS any firearms. Even machine guns. They do however require a Pistol Permit or Long gun certificate to purchase a long gun. The key word being PURCHASE.

As a result of this, it is perfectly legal for a CT resident who does not hold any licenses to purchase a long gun in NH or RI or any other state that doesn't require an out of state person to have a license to possess or transport. Its legal to BUY in NH because its legal to POSSESS in CT without any licenses.

Its funny really. A CT resident can't buy a rifle in CT without a PP.. But he can go to RI and buy that rifle.

This news was BIG among the FUDD community after PA 13-3 passed. Most didn't have any licenses and were appalled to learn (after the law passed and they did nothing because they didn't think it affected them!!!) that they couldn't even buy ammo without a license.

So now they can drive to RI and pick up the 20 rounds of 30-06 they will use over deer season and maybe a new Ruger American for their kid to use.

Don

The part that I highlighted in red is incorrect. A Connecticut resident would need a permit to carry, pistol/revolver eligibility certificate, or long gun eligibility certificate (or be otherwise exempted from the requirement) to purchase a rifle or shotgun in a state other than Connecticut. The GCA requires that the sale, delivery, and receipt adhere to the laws of both states.

Refer to 18 USC 922(b)(3)(A)

(3)any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

(Emphasis mine)