Simple solution for classroom doors?

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Aside from the host of other suggestions about making things "safer" in the classroom, How about just putting a couple of industrial strength deadbolts on the inside of the doors? They work no matter which way the door opens, inward or outward and would provide a greater level of protection than a few pieces of flimsy classroom furniture.

They did it to cockpit doors on planes.......is it such a stretch to apply the same logic to a classroom?

 

[FiveseveN]

I think that would be the logical first step (securing classroom doors).

I would also be willing to consider mandatory metal detectors for all educational establishments in the country.

I don't really like the metal detector idea, but it is certainly more logical than banning any firearms.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I wouldn't support metal detectors, as it would expose those who "should" able to carry concealed and they would also require that they be manned.

Another fault with them is that they would false on every set of keys, jewelry, computer, briefcase, pocketful of change, ect. Before you know it, it would be unplugged as a nuisance and its back to square one.

A deadbolt is simple, unobtrusive and effective to seal an occupied room off in an emergency.

 

[subcomunic8r]

Double edged sword. What about the cops attempting to enter the room with a barricaded suspect and hostages inside?

 

[Admin]

Metal Detectors don't work.

Walk up execute the guard at the door and proceed to execute students... Completely pointless...

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Double edged sword. What about the cops attempting to enter the room with a barricaded suspect and hostages inside?

Breeching charge, haligan bar, battering ram....the same way they do it now on any other locked door.

 

[ICZEOZN]

Many schools have doors that feature large glass windows within the door itself or, like my school, have one foot wide floor-to-ceiling windows on the side of the door.

Sure, it may work in some cases; however, a hammer is all that is needed to break the window on most doors and allow limited (but sufficient) access to the room and the people inside it.

There is no need to turn schools into fortresses because of these rare events.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Many schools have doors that feature large glass windows within the door itself or, like my school, have one foot wide floor-to-ceiling windows on the side of the door.

Sure, it may work in some cases; however, a hammer is all that is needed to break the window on most doors and allow limited (but sufficient) access to the room and the people inside it.

There is no need to turn schools into fortresses because of these rare events.

A deadbolt is far from a "fortress". All outside leading doors on every campus building has a lock on it to prevent unauthorized entry. Why not place manual locks on the insides of occupied classrooms to prevent unauthorized access in an emergency?
Even a door with a window would allow for someone standing beside it on the inside to do severe damge to the hand or arm of a perp trying to open the door locks. Most of the windows I've seen are narrow peek type courtesy/safety windows that alow for not opening the door into someone standing inside. They are barely wide enough to fit an arm through, not to mention that many contain steel wire mesh.

The time to think "outside the box" has arrived. Brick up the lights beside the doors, secure the doors enough to at least slow down if not prevent unauthorized entry.

Many schools have no outside facing windows. Ever wonder what a hazard that might present in a fire?

Go look at Newton North High School....it was designed by an achitect that designs prisons and the school looks like one.

I'd rather have both outside facing windows and secured inner doors. It makes sense in both security and fire safety.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Metal Detectors don't work.

Walk up execute the guard at the door and proceed to execute students... Completely pointless...

I had occasion to visit a building that was serious about this. You had to enter a small lobby with a door on each end, and the guard was on the inside of a the second door that was not opened until you passed through the metal detector without triggering it (there was also had a small pass through for bags to be x-rayed).

This was all very impressive until the guard had to get a smoke and stepped outside the non-smoking facility to do so.

 

[Executive]

Dupe post sorry

 

[Executive]

I used to work at Newton North.
Security there is questionable at best, but deadbolts are not the solution. A classroom door lockable from the inside introduces too many other potential problems that are FAR more common than a perp at large in the school.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Deadbolt is a bad idea. A far more common problem introduced with the addition of a deadbolt would be students locking themselves inside to cause trouble.

AUTOMATIC EXPULSION!!! WITH NO POSSIBILITY TO RETURN.

IS THAT A CLEAR ENOUGH MESSAGE TO CONVEY TO A COLLEGE AGE STUDENT????

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I used to work at Newton North.
Security there is questionable at best, but deadbolts are not the solution. A classroom door lockable from the inside introduces too many other potential problems that are FAR more common than a perp at large in the school.

Ok....modify the lock so it can be unlocked with a card by an authorized person.

There is nothing stopping kids now from barricading a door in Newton North, all the classroom doors open inward.

EDIT: For the purposes of childish michief...which is what I'm sure you are refering to.

 

[Cato]

What if the threat is a student and he is in the room already?

 

[FiveseveN]

AUTOMATIC EXPULSION!!! WITH NO POSSIBILITY TO RETURN.

IS THAT A CLEAR ENOUGH MESSAGE TO CONVEY TO A COLLEGE AGE STUDENT????

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

You think it's a ridiculous idea? Go get caught pulling a fire alarm at Boston College and see if you if you are not automatically expelled.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

What if the threat is a student and he is in the room already?

Mmm, what if the flying saucer lands in your back yard and not your neighbor's?

How about staying on subject here and reading the posts.

"Manual" deadbolts.....able to be opened easily from the inside, difficult to open from the outside without tools.
If the threat is already in the room, you fight or flee. What other choice do you think you have?

 

[Executive]

Automatic expulsion?

As mentioned above, I used to teach at Newton North, one of the most liberal high schools in the United States. Students demonstrating contempt for faculty and staff is a way of life there. Expulsion for locking the door? HA! More likely counseling to find out why the student thought it necessary to prevent the teacher from entering.

I visited Assabet Valley Technical High School a few years back and when I returned to Newton North (NN) I told my students how Assabet had a requirement that all students wear visible IDs. These IDs could be scanned in each classroom at entry/exit and attendance was automatic. Real-time student location was also possible. The NN students declared that they would never wear the ID and that tracking student wherabouts was invasive, demeaning and "unconstitutional", and suggested comparisons with Nazi Germany. (and I use the rolleyes VERY sparingly)

The (much smaller) school where I currently work has been implementing a mandatory ID program this year with mixed results. The technology for scanning is cost prohibitive and the students dislike wearing the ID even under the threat of Detention/Suspension.

School security remains a difficult problem. Perhaps more formal security personel or teachers trained in security measures and specially licensed to carry (Class AAA LTC anyone?) might be the answer.


(BC is a private college and far easier to dismiss a student from)

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Automatic expulsion?

As mentioned above, I used to teach at Newton North, one of the most liberal high schools in the United States. Students demonstrating contempt for faculty and staff is a way of life there. Expulsion for locking the door? HA! More likely counseling to find out why the student thought it necessary to prevent the teacher from entering.

I visited Assabet Valley Technical High School a few years back and when I returned to Newton North (NN) I told my students how Assabet had a requirement that all students wear visible IDs. These IDs could be scanned in each classroom at entry/exit and attendance was automatic. Real-time student location was also possible. The NN students declared that they would never wear the ID and that tracking student wherabouts was invasive, demeaning and "unconstitutional", and suggested comparisons with Nazi Germany. (and I use the rolleyes VERY sparingly)

The (much smaller) school where I currently work has been implementing a mandatory ID program this year with mixed results. The technology for scanning is cost prohibitive and the students dislike wearing the ID even under the threat of Detention/Suspension.

School security remains a difficult problem. Perhaps more formal security personel or teachers trained in security measures and specially licensed to carry (Class AAA LTC anyone?) might be the answer.

First of all, I used Newton North as a reference for its construction flaws, not for the presentation of immature high school antics.

My original post and idea concerned the installation of manual locks on the insides of doors at "colleges"....where people are expected to act and conduct themselves as adults. I realize that there may be abuses of the system....its not perfect...but its a start.

As for automatic expulsion? The stroke of a pen is all that is needed. A few examples will open alot of eyes and change alot of minds.

College age kids should be held to a little higher standard and making excuses for them or high school kids is not the answer.

 

[Cato]

Mmm, what if the flying saucer lands in your back yard and not your neighbor's?

How about staying on subject here and reading the posts.

"Manual" deadbolts.....able to be opened easily from the inside, difficult to open from the outside without tools.
If the threat is already in the room, you fight or flee. What other choice do you think you have?

Do me a favor. If you are having a tiff with another poster don't misdirect your anger toward me with a disrespectful response.

My point was not that students could not get out if under attack. My point was that a dead bolt would only stop a murderous gunman from going from room to room.

For example the VT shooter could have just as easily shot 32 people all in the same room rather than go room to room.

 

[Executive]

I agree with much of what you suggest but we must remain realistic.

Locks work well in theory but would come off right after the first woman is raped inside a classroom she could not escape from.

Automatic expulsion sounds great but remember that it is far more difficult to expel a student from a public high school than from a private college.

I also understand your point about the NN architecture, and agree. I thought a little information about the NN student body would be enlightening.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Do me a favor. If you are having a tiff with another poster don't misdirect your anger toward me with a disrespectful response.

My point was not that students could not get out if under attack. My point was that a dead bolt would only stop a murderous gunman from going from room to room.

For example the VT shooter could have just as easily shot 32 people all in the same room rather than go room to room.

And if you recall, he chained the doors. No door in any public gathering facility should be designed to be able to be "chained" to prevent exit or entry. Even the "crash bars" mandated on "exits" of schools are usually of a type that does not facilitate the use of a chain to lock it....because they have been found "chained" while the building is occupied. This is a national fire code violation as well as a violation of CFR.
If these crash bars are not of a type that prevents "chaining", then perhaps an upgrade is in order.

Back to the deadbolt, If a deadbolt stopped the movement of a person on a rampage from going room to room, it did it's job.

Like I said, if the threat is already in the room, you fight or flee.
I don't think your question was even germane to the original subject.... my apology for the flippant answer.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I agree with much of what you suggest but we must remain realistic.

Locks work well in theory but would come off right after the first woman is raped inside a classroom she could not escape from.

The deadbolt would be manually able to be unlocked from the inside. Escape would not be prevented by it exclusively.

Automatic expulsion sounds great but remember that it is far more difficult to expel a student from a public high school than from a private college.

That could and likely will happen in public schools. It has already happened for far lesser offenses. I think you will see a vast overhaul of the policies concerning expulsion of trouble makers and troubled students as a result of this crime at VT. The fallout has not even begun.



I also understand your point about the NN architecture, and agree. I thought a little information about the NN student body would be enlightening.

I thank you for your input on the student behavior. My point is that the time has come where things must/will change and there is going to be alot of people who may not like it...its going to be tough noogies for them.

Point by point.

 

[Executive]

Point by point.

We think alike. Let's hope that the liberals in academia understand the logic behind these ideas. Things need to be better...

 

[chuck9899]

Nothing is ever going to work perfectly and if some one wants to do something there going to find away to do it. What if he drove around campus and ran people over? how you going to stop people from doing that make a offsite campus parking and institute a no driving policy. the world is a scary place and people have to accepted that. always worrying is going to destory us.

granted taking precautions is 100% the best thing to do but once we start majorly changing are lives these kinds of people and the terriorist win. while totally different groups they are related because they inflict fear on us for huge spans of time after the events and cause massive changes in policies.

sorry if i rambled on for too long.

 

[Ripach]

My wife teaches at an elementary school and her classroom door locks automatically when closed and can be opened from outside with a key or from inside just by turning the handle. Most teachers in her building keep the doors closed most of the day, and their principal has a code word that they announce via PA system in the event of an incident that requires them to close all the doors. While it is surely not a foolproof system its better than nothing. This is not a NEW policy been in place for 5 years now. Personally I wish they would let her carry to work.

 

[kevin9]

I work on a military base. Even though it is more like an office park than a real base we have various security systems and "practices" every month. I think some of these could apply even at a large college campus.

Control access to buildings and areas. We have guards at the gates who check ID's plus access control for individual buildings. I doubt you could or would want to put guards on the entrances to a college campus, but it would make sense to possible reduce the number of entrances and install gates such that the campus, or parts thereof, can be quickly closed off.

I would think having card access system for all buildings would be an absolute minimum. It should be easily programmable, and access control rules should be changeable in real time from central facilities. This could be extended to individual rooms or areas in buildings for more granularity of control.

Communications systems are needed. We have electronic sign boards at all entrances and a low-tech outdoor speaker system to broadcast basic security announcements. Put a sign board at every campus entrance and key transit points and you can get basic information to everyone relatively quickly.

The key is to establish an escalating security level system that can partition the campus into appropriate security zones as needed. The military uses a 4 level system. For a college campus I could see something similar. For a large campus different areas or buildings on campus could be set at different levels appropriately.

Level 1 would be normal operations where all buildings are accessible to all card holders and card holders can bring in visitors themselves. Public type areas would have open access.

Level 2 would restrict access for housing buildings to residents, and classroom buildings to students who have classes that day in that building and staff with offices in the building. Public areas and administration buildings would be restricted to card holders. Authorized entrants could bring in visitors. This level can be sustained indefinitely.

Level 3 is highly controlled access. Establish manned single point of entry to buildings. The key card access would be basically the same as level 2, but would have to be double checked against actual rosters. Visitors would have to be vouched for in person by residents. Exiting people would also be checked against access rosters.

Level 4 is lock-down. No entrance allowed. Exit may or may not be allowed depending upon specific situations.

Finally one would need a security plan that describes when and where to apply security levels and who can make the decisions.

It's not a panacea, and I doubt such an approach would have guaranteed that the VT event would have been contained, but it could have made some difference depending upon what parts of campus where at what levels and what access the shooter would normally have had.

Ah well, hindsight is 20-20.

 

[JonJ]

Rather than searching for ways to turn schools and other public places into jails or impenetrable fortresses, we should be looking at ways to make these places less desirable for those who want to use them for satisfying their sick minds.

 

[ICZEOZN]

Rather than searching for ways to turn schools and other public places into jails or impenetrable fortresses, we should be looking at ways to make these places less desirable for those who want to use them for satisfying their sick minds.

Exactly. Not too many people are fond of the idea of being tracked around the campus and being asked to "show papers" before entering buildings.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Exactly. Not too many people are fond of the idea of being tracked around the campus and being asked to "show papers" before entering buildings.

Hmm, Though its off the topic of the original post about door bolts, if you asked most of those same people if they would like you tracked as a gun owner and to show papers (which is already NFA law) I think they'd agree quite hastily.

ID badges, card key entry, locked doors, separated production areas are all part of the big bad world that these same people are contesting with others to go out and take their place in. Is it so illogical that they encounter the same conditions where they are educated and reside?.....to provide for some level of their own security?.....or is that ALWAYS going to be someone elses responsibility......oh wait, those who are deligated are trying to do something and those who did the deligating object? See the problem here???