Shooting in Las Vegas

[redtail]

I have read about this case before. At first I was angry and shocked, but at the end of the day there is still a big point to make.
According to witnesses and his own girlfriend, he started to move his hand toward his gun, while saying something like "I am disarming". Now, I don't know a cop anywhere who would order anyone to do that, they would be yelling at him to stop. Like it or not, if he didn't stop, then what you have is a justified shooting. Attempting to put your hand on your gun when 3 cops have you at gunpoint, it would take a miracle to survive such a stupid move. Its sickening it went to that level at all, but I don't think the outcome should be any surprise to anyone here.

 

[Admin]

This is the stark reality for a CCW holder that gets stopped

 

[jcr]

Another look at the issues:

Analysis of a Death: The Erik Scott Shooting
.
--jcr

 

[GSG]

Sorry, but that's a piss poor reason, IMO.

Yup.

 

[Will Brink]

Just another case of trigger happy cops. They should all be arrested for manslaughter!!!! Of course we all know this will not happen as cops are above the law and will use the lame argument that they felt their life was in danger.

!

Colleen Kullberg, who was working part-time at customer demonstrations at Costco, told jurors she saw Erik Scott pull out his gun and point it at a Metro officer before officers shot him. Kullberg said as she tried to leave the store, she saw Erik Scott staring at an officer after the officer had told him to get down on the ground "at least five times."

"He reached behind him and pulled out his gun and aimed it at the officer," Kullberg said. "At that time, the officer shot him." Asked to describe what Scott did as he was standing, staring at the officer. "He was like dazed. He was just looking at him. He wasn't obeying any of his commands."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/sep/22/coroners-inquest-erik-scott/

Scott's father says he's releasing the prescription list before Metro claims the drugs lead to Erik Scott acting impulsively with his concealed gun.

8 News NOW took the list to a local pharmacist who says the drugs could have lead to manic behavior. Taken individually, the prescribed drugs and nutritional supplements Erik Scott's father says his son took are not considered harmful. But according to the Scott family, there's 32 of them all mixed together.

Bill Scott says his son took some prescribed medications for a fractured back from his army service. Scott was prescribed drugs from Dr. Gnoyski at Summerlin's Rehabilitation Associates. It was high dose of hydrocodone pain killer. There was the blood pressure medication and both human growth and bio identical hormones, antidepressants and testosterone. Bill Scott claims some of those drugs were prescribed by Dr. John Pierce at the Ageless Forever Clinic. [see following clipping--Dr. Pierce denies any connection to Scott] The steroid prednisone was also reportedly prescribed to help with Scott's back pain.

This mix is seen as a potentially dangerous combo capable of creating erratic behavior by pharmacy Dr. Kenton Crowley. "Some people who get prednisone can actually get a manic-like effect or dysphoric almost causing a depression type of an effect," said Dr. Crowley, Pathway Specialty Compounds.

Scott's father says Erik took a wide range of 17 nutritional supplements as well. Many of them are available over the counter. There is also an extensive list of seven antioxidants provided by the Scott family. Dr. Crowley says they affect the liver's ability to absorb the more potent drugs reportedly in Scott's system. "Definitely slow down elimination so that you're getting much longer effect from that particular substance," Dr. Crowley said.

Dr. Crowley also notes Scott's body chemistry could have been severely altered if he forgot to take one dose of any one of his several medicines for just one day. In his medical opinion, changing those prescription levels could have affected Scott's behavior.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13194...f-drugs-erik-scott-was-taking?redirected=true

A list of drugs found in the blood of Erik Scott is displayed during a coroner's inquest at the Regional Justice Center Wednesday, September 22, 2010, which included Ephedrine, Amphetamine, Morphine, Hydromorphone

http://www.lasvegassun.com/photos/2010/sep/22/88572/

So, you - and others - still wanna run your ignorant mouth? This guy was a walking pharmacy, and a person who got himself killed, 100% due to his own bad decisions. As usual, your ilk wines of "trigger happy cops" but will not be man enough to admit when you're wrong.

This event does not make LE look bad, it makes law abiding CCW look bad. And we, as law abiding CCW should support LE and stop jumping to the defense of someone like Scott when he makes all law abiding CCW look bad.

I'll take working with those of the thin blue line over idiots like you and the ilk any day, and it's comments like yours - and a few others in this thread - that makes the law abiding CCW look like the knee jerk jerks who don't support LE and the rights of the law abiding CCW.

YOU damage the cause for all of us when you make ignorant comments that are due to an obvious anti LE bias.

As usual, once the facts start to appear, people like you and ilk will slink away and wait for the next time, and instead of giving the LE the benefit of the doubt 'till all the facts are in, start running your mouth due to simply having a dislike for authority and cops.

 

[June4th]

To have a witness testimony that said Erik drew his gun out of the holster is a major development. The detail seemed have not surfaced before. If it indeed happened, there will likely be more witnesses to corroborate this. One witness's account doesn't make it fact yet.

 

[Will Brink]

To have a witness testimony that said Erik drew his gun out of the holster is a major development. The detail seemed have not surfaced before. If it indeed happened, there will likely be more witnesses to corroborate this. One witness's account doesn't make it fact yet.

Yet, when a single witness, who heard, but did not see a thing, states he heard them tell him to drop the gun, and when he turned after the event, saw no gun, that was plenty for many here to start in with their moronic comments.

 

[TheRoland]

...

Wow, angry much?

The medical testimony was interesting, but wasn't actually on point. It's character assassination, and doesn't actually have anything to do with what happened. Lots of people who are injured serving their country manage to be under pain treatment without going insane.

The eyewitness testimony is a major development, but I have to say that it conflicts with accounts we've heard previously. One witness account doesn't make it fact.

 

[terraformer]

To have a witness testimony that said Erik drew his gun out of the holster is a major development. The detail seemed have not surfaced before. If it indeed happened, there will likely be more witnesses to corroborate this. One witness's account doesn't make it fact yet.

No, that has been out there for some time, as is multiple other witnesses that say he didn't do this but pulled it out like he was going to drop it as those same witnesses say the cops where telling him to do.

 

[TheRoland]

No, that has been out there for some time, as is multiple other witnesses that say he didn't do this but pulled it out like he was going to drop it as those same witnesses say the cops where telling him to do.

Yes, but I didn't think the "he pointed the gun like a crazy-man!" story was going to be made under oath. I makes me think the video will not be recovered.

 

[Will Brink]

Wow, angry much?
.

Ignorance, stupidity, and making all law abiding gun owners look bad, tends to annoy me. There's nothing off point about the medical report, or do you think meth is prescribed to injured people or soldiers? It's a damn shame Scott went down that road, but it's pitiful how fast people are to jump to assumptions regarding the LEOs who had to deal with him.

 

[Admin]

Ignorance, stupidity, and making all law abiding gun owners look bad, tends to annoy me. There's nothing off point about the medical report, or do you think meth is prescribed to injured people or soldiers? It's a damn shame Scott went down that road, but it's pitiful how fast people are to jump to assumptions regarding the LEOs who had to deal with him.

It's a reality of life, you shouldn't let it bother you so much.

 

[TheRoland]

meth

Where did you get this? I didn't read this anywhere.

 

[Will Brink]

It's a reality of life, you shouldn't let it bother you so much.

You're right of course. Point taken, thanx.

 

[terraformer]

Where did you get this? I didn't read this anywhere.

Because Will brink doesn't understand his drugs very well. Amphetamine is not meth, but apparently it is in his mind. In the big boy world it is a psychostimulant called aderol or ritalin.

None of these (Ephedrine, Amphetamine, Morphine, Hydromorphone) are "meth". The three others are pain killers.

 

[TheRoland]

Because Will brink doesn't understand his drugs very well. Amphetamine is not meth, but apparently it is in his mind. In the big boy world it is a psychostimulant called aderol or ritalin.

To be fair, the "he was a junkie on drugs!" is exactly the reaction the presentation was designed to elicit.

It will be interesting to see where the eyewitness testimony and any physical evidence leads, but making judgments based on an incomplete understanding of Wednesday's toxicology report is a mistake.

 

[M1911]

Ignorance, stupidity, and making all law abiding gun owners look bad, tends to annoy me. There's nothing off point about the medical report, or do you think meth is prescribed to injured people or soldiers? It's a damn shame Scott went down that road, but it's pitiful how fast people are to jump to assumptions regarding the LEOs who had to deal with him.

Meth? You might want to do a refresher on your medical knowledge or edit your post there, chief. There is no evidence that he was on meth.

As for the witness statement, anyone who has actually worked with witnesses will tell you that their statements are often unreliable. In this case, it isn't news that some witnesses claim he had his gun in his hand and others claim that he didn't. Some claim that he was removing his gun from his holster as ordered by the police officers, and some claim otherwise. That information was out there from day 1 if you were paying attention -- I guess you weren't.

We really need the video, which, suspiciously, is unavailable.

 

[terraformer]

To be fair, the "he was a junkie on drugs!" is exactly the reaction the presentation was designed to elicit.

Oh, I know but that is why I was such a dick about my response. He is demanding of us to be more open minded (which I actually am) and he is falling prey to even the most basic of spins and one that is easily unraveled.

This shooting has to be very well investigated and by people who have no interest in the outcome. That last part is going to be real tough because you have CCWers who have interests here, you have cops with interests here, and you have the entire training and power structure of LE with an interest here. Many civies here have said Scott would have been better off with less attitude but I have not seen the cops say that their training is probably lacking in this area nor have I heard the trainers say they need to do a better job with training in this area. In those last two groups, we have actually heard the exact opposite (ref: conway's post and the local PDs smear campaign).

I want every cop reading this to remember, it isn't just CCWrs who are at risk of being innocently gunned down. It is you too when either in plain clothes or "off the clock" carrying under LEOSA. Don't believe me, look at the Providence shooting from 5 or so years ago. They smeared that cop too in order to duck out from under the blame and have to face that the training today is all about projecting control and authority to gain compliance instead of teaching recruits to use their frickn' brains.

 

[MassBites]

My heart breaks for the deceased, his girlfriend and his family. Because of that, my emotions want me to side with them and against the LV police. On the other hand, my intellect is telling me that I don't have all the facts and therefor, I can't judge either way at this time. The only thing I know for certain is that a law abiding citizen is dead.

Thus far, the incident looks like one big fuster cluck and if anything good can come out of it, I would hope that LEO's AND law abiding gun owners can learn something from it and not make the same mistakes again.

 

[Will Brink]

Because Will brink doesn't understand his drugs very well. Amphetamine is not meth,

MethAmphetamine is in the family of amphetamines. They report simply states amphetamines, some which are used clinically (none of which are used for pain control) and some are of the meth, crank, etc variety. Side effects:

"Chronic use often results in insomnia, hyperactivity, irritability, and aggressive behavior. Addiction can result in psychosis or death from overexhaustion or cardiac arrest. Amphetamine-induced psychosis often mimics schizophrenia, with paranoia and hallucinations."

Compounds in the amphetamine family range from mild and used for clinical use to amphetamine with a simple methyl group attached. Yes, it's likely he was using a prescribed amphetamine drug.

but apparently it is in his mind. In the big boy world it is a psychostimulant called aderol or ritalin.

"Amphetamines: A group of colorless, volatile liquids, C9H13N, used as a central nervous system stimulant in the treatment of certain conditions, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression, and narcolepsy, and abused illegally as a stimulant. Meth amphetamine is in the family of amphetamines, and one can attach methyl groups, and others, to get a specific effect. "

None of these (Ephedrine, Amphetamine, Morphine, Hydromorphone) are "meth". The three others are pain killers.

Ephedrine is used as a pain killer? Do tell....Ephedrine is a similar neuro stimulant to the amphetamines and is easily converted to methamphetamine: it has no clinical use at all in pain management, has similar pharmacological properties to amphetamines, and easily converted to meth, which BTW, is why meth producers use it for. Combining ephedrine with an amphetamine, will cause the side effects listed above and is quite dangerous.

 

[TheRoland]

....

Nice, never admit you're wrong. Just double down!

 

[M1911]

Nice, never admit you're wrong. Just double down!

yup.

 

[terraformer]

MethAmphetamine is in the family of amphetamines. They report simply states amphetamines, some which are used clinically (none of which are used for pain control) and some are of the meth, crank, etc variety. Side effects:

"Chronic use often results in insomnia, hyperactivity, irritability, and aggressive behavior. Addiction can result in psychosis or death from overexhaustion or cardiac arrest. Amphetamine-induced psychosis often mimics schizophrenia, with paranoia and hallucinations."

Compounds in the amphetamine family range from mild and used for clinical use to amphetamine with a simple methyl group attached. Yes, it's likely he was using a prescribed amphetamine drug.



"Amphetamines: A group of colorless, volatile liquids, C9H13N, used as a central nervous system stimulant in the treatment of certain conditions, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression, and narcolepsy, and abused illegally as a stimulant. Meth amphetamine is in the family of amphetamines, and one can attach methyl groups, and others, to get a specific effect. "




Ephedrine is used as a pain killer? Do tell....Ephedrine is a similar neuro stimulant to the amphetamines and is easily converted to methamphetamine: it has no clinical use at all in pain management, has similar pharmacological properties to amphetamines, and easily converted to meth, which BTW, is why meth producers use it for. Combining ephedrine with an amphetamine, will cause the side effects listed above and is quite dangerous.

Well, I am sure you think you have me but you don't. I made one assumption too. I assumed the ephedrine was related to the morphine. There are drugs out there with codeine and ephedrine for allergy suffers. But let's face it, meth head is a better assumption I guess.

Look, like I have said, this has to be well investigated by people without a dog in the fight. Because if the presence of drugs in his system, especially if they are trace amounts which the article never says the concentrations, is going to automatically indemnify the PD and stop all investigations, then a serious injustice has been committed.

If the video shows that he went on a rampage, then fine he went on a rampage and we can blame the drugs. If the video shows he was stunned (which your golden witness said he was), it could be the drugs, but it could be the fact that he just walked into a hornets nest that a reasonable person would not have thought was directed at him.

 

[Will Brink]

Nice, never admit you're wrong. Just double down!

I proved him wrong, and you don't have the science background for an opinion on the matter, and that's a fact.

 

[namedpipes]

anh skip it. I see the fight already happened...

 

[M1911]

Well, I am sure you think you have me but you don't. I made one assumption too. I assumed the ephedrine was related to the morphine. There are drugs out there with codeine and ephedrine for allergy suffers.

Really? There are certainly many pain medications with codeine. There are certainly many allergy drugs with pseudoephedrine (e.g., Sudafed). But as an allergy sufferer, I've never been prescribed anything with codeine for my allergies. I would not be surprised if he was prescribed codeine for his back, and the ephedrine could have come from over the counter Sudafed. Ephedrine can also be found in some supplements.

But let's face it, meth head is a better assumption I guess.

I assume you are being sarcastic.

 

[M1911]

so shut your pie hole.

Will, you're better than comments like this.

He's got his opinion. You've got yours. He's got every right to state his opinion here and you have absolutely no right to tell him not to.

 

[Will Brink]

Well, I am sure you think you have me but you don't. .

I showed you were wrong. Simple as that. You claimed meth amphetamine is not an amphetamine, then claimed ephedrine is used for pain. Neither of which is correct. My mistake was saying the word "meth" vs saying amphetamine, of which there are many types, a few of which you listed. Regardless, mixing amphetamines with ephedrine is a recipe for very bad things to happen, both psychogenically and physically.

Because if the presence of drugs in his system, especially if they are trace amounts which the article never says the concentrations,

Look closer, concentrations were given. They don't give measurements, but ng/dl is what I would expect.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/photos/2010/sep/22/88572/

is going to automatically indemnify the PD and stop all investigations, then a serious injustice has been committed.

No amount of drug use should defacto end a full investigation. Don't add words never said or implied by me.

 

[drgrant]

Will, you're better than comments like this.

He's got his opinion. You've got yours. He's got every right to state his opinion here and you have absolutely no right to tell him not to.

This. Let's not take this thread into the s**tter, please.

-Mike

 

[Admin]

I don't want to lock the thread. Please take it down a notch.