Shipping a potentially antique firearm

[Delkancott]

Hey All,

Someone in NC expressed interest in an old top break S&W .32 I have and I was curious to folks opinions on shipping it. From what I've read you can ship a firearm manufactured prior to 1898 without an FFL, but my question is how do I prove the firearm manufacturing date if I don't have serial records?

Is it prudent to still ship through an FFL to avoid the risk?

Thanks.

Pics for reference.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Have you looked at other threads, forums or contacted S&W?
Here is a thread that may help. Matt

How to Identify/Date a S&W

Many people have questions about how to identify a S&W revolver and when was it made. I borrowed this from a thread on Highroad.org forum. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=356710 It has a lot of info that might be of interest to many of you. Identifying features: This is where to...

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[KMM696]

It may be cheaper and easier to ship through an FFL, as the issue is finding someone who'll ship it and how much extra effort you'd have to go through.:

FedEx
https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/services/Service_Guide_2023.pdf - P.126

"Only customers holding a Federal Firearms License (FFL) and federal, state, or local government agencies may ship firearms with FedEx. Customers holding an FFL must enter into an approved FedEx Firearms Shipping Compliance Agreement before shipping any firearms with FedEx. For more information, contact your FedEx account executive. On behalf of customers holding an FFL who enter into an approved FedEx Firearms Shipping Compliance Agreement and federal, state, or local government agencies, FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms, antique firearms, and replica firearms, all as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, as well as muzzleloaders and black powder firearms (collectively “firearms”)."

I have not pinged FedEx to see if they include C&R licensees under "customers holding a Federal Firearms License" and are willing set up a Compliance agreement for them.


UPS
UPS does specifically recognize the C&R FFL, but you will have to set up an account with them and jump through some paperwork hoops to do it. You also can't use UPS Stores and the like, has to be either driver pickup or at one of their shipping hubs with a retail counter. I believe their other locations are not covered as common carriers, so they can't handle firearms. I've found that the W. Springfield MA UPS hub is pretty good at knowing the rules, as they do a ton of shipping for that S&W company across the river.

https://www.ups.com/assets/resources/webcontent/en_US/terms_service_us.pdf - P.7, Sec 3.7

"3.7.1 Firearms Packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26,Chapter 53 of the United States Code)and firearm parts that do not constitute firearms as defined by federal law (together, “Firearm Products”) are accepted for transportation only as a contractual service and only from government agencies and Shippers who are licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code). To transport Packages containing Firearm Products, the Shipper must enter into an approved UPS agreement for the transportation of Firearm Products."

The following web page is also incorporated as official UPS policy by Sec. 3.7:
https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/s...egulated-items/prohibited-items/firearms.page

I'm not really that informed on the ins and outs of the Federal antique definition. UPS Sec 3.7 refers to two USCs, the more relevant appearing being 18 USC Ch44 S921 (Definitions) number 16:

"(16) The term "antique firearm" means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; "

At first read it would seem to me that your S&W uses centerfire ammo that is still available in ordinary channels and would not be classified as an antique even if pre 1898 so UPS would ship it as a firearm, not an antique -but I'm not really familiar with this area. Someone else probably has better information on that.

USPS
The US Postal Service also uses a definition of antique derived from USC T18 C44 focusing on muzzle loaded and not centerfire ammo. Also, C&R licensees can't ship handguns (but can ship rifles and shotguns).

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm#ep290109 - Section 43


TL/DR - You can ship some guns yourself, but it's a pain in the ass and can cost more than paying an FFL/shop to do it. If this is a one time event, pay your shop. As they can ship with USPS, it can be cheaper than you can do it, anyway.

 

[KMM696]

The things people will do to avoid the boring, repetitive parts of real work, eh??

Reading shipping tariffs seems to be more interesting than reading defense contracts.

 

[Mass Patriot]

USPS
Also, C&R licensees can't ship handguns (but can ship rifles and shotguns).

Are you certain that is accurate information?

 

[milktree]

Are you certain that is accurate information?

It is.

USPS doesn’t care about C&R

 

[Mass Patriot]

It is.

USPS doesn’t care about C&R

So it's not a federal law thing, it's a USPS rule thing, is that right?

I know that violating a USPS rule is a federal violation, so they get you that way. A back-door way of making their own little rules have the power of federal law.

 

[KMM696]

Are you certain that is accurate information?

Rereading that, I did run out of gas on the USPS section - probably had actual work interrupt or something.

In any case, USPS Reg 432.2, Mailibility of Handguns.

432.2 Handguns​

Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:

1. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
2. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing between governmental museums without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in 432.21 through 432.24 and Exhibit 432.25.
3. Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 and are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include Adult Signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
4. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
5. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

So, if you have a C&R, and the handgun is both C&R eligible, and an antique, you can ship by USPS. Otherwise, you need to be one of the "parties listed in this section", Section 432.21:

432.21 Authorized Persons​

Subject to 432.22, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, a licensed importer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties, and upon filing the required affidavit or certificate:

1. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.
2. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.
3. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
4. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.
5. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.
6. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.
7. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 432.21c through e.

A C&R holder wouldn't qualify as authorized, as it's not a dealers license.

So, it is very much a USPS rule, not specifically federal law. As you said, can't really tell the difference in them other than we have no input to their rule making.

 

[milktree]

So it's not a federal law thing, it's a USPS rule thing, is that right?

I know that violating a USPS rule is a federal violation, so they get you that way. A back-door way of making their own little rules have the power of federal law.

The overlap between "USPS" and "federal" is pretty large. In any practical sense it doesn't matter because it's a felony for anyone but an FFL (other than 03) to ship a handgun via USPS.

 

[Mass Patriot]

KMM,
Thanks for digging up and posting the rules. knowledge is power, although I'm not feeling it right now.

Milktree,
So the pot of water we frogs are in, continues to heat up....