Self made homedefense reloads

[Goomba]

i apologize i can't remember the source, but i was reading another forum where a retired LEO said that is was a very bad idea to make your own home defense rounds because of the liability, how they may look at it different because you made the round that killed someone

what do you all think about that?

just curious, in thinking that i should only reload for range use or does it really matter?

 

[ochmude]

Sounds like an Ayoobisim. I've heard it as well. Lot's of people are going to post arguments for and against the logic. I don't carry reloads because I'm not that confident in my reloads. By that I mean I have no clue what sort of terminal performance I could expect from my reloads. I don't even know what sort of velocity I get out of them.

 

[Fixxah]

I'll take my chances with my own ammo thank you.

 

[June4th]

In a self-defense case, there are more obvious issues to consider: means, opportunity, intention of the intruder and state of mind of the homeowner etc. By using commercial ammo, you can avoid an overzealous DA's portrayal of a homeowner that 'makes his own ammunition that's more lethal than commonly available', or 'the ballistic study was non-conclusive because the ammunition was not documented by manufacturers'... A little bit of CYA never hurts.

 

[pbearperry]

Even in Massacrapsetts I have never seen reloads as in issue in a good self defense shoot.If anyone can find a link to a good shoot turned bad because or reloads I would like to see it.

 

[Goomba]

Massacrapsetts

got a good laugh over that, never heard is called that before.

thanks

 

[gerrycaruso]

I practice and plink with my own reloads but I only carry factory ammo. If you don't think Massachusetts would try to use reloads against you,then carry reloads.

 

[EddieCoyle]

My carry guns use factory ammo - not because I think it's a bad idea to use reloads, but because I don't reload hollowpoints. One of my HD guns has my reloads in it though.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Dead is dead. If you are going to have to shoot them, make sure they are dead.

You never hear:
Atty: "Your honor, I protest that my client was killed with a stick that was not an approved stick"

or

Atty: "Your honor, I protest that my client was killed with a 2 pound rock when the state only approves the use of 1 pound rocks."

HP's, round nose, SWC's, factory loads, reloads... what's the difference? Dead is dead. And, dead is forever.

If you have to shoot. KILL.

 

[Kicker96FS]

I do my own reloads, and they are HP's, and they are in my carry gun. As long as they go "BANG", whats the difference if it is factory loads or your own, using the specs. laid out in the reloading book?

Like Dukeinmaine said, dead is dead.

I do not think the DA will look any further than the gun used, and you.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

I don't think it matters as far as liability. The only real reason that I've heard to avoid using reloads for self defense is a greater chance of having a dud or FTF in a situation that you need reliability the most. As long as you trust your reloads completely though, it shouldn't make much of a difference. Besides, if you wanted to make sure the aggressor did not have a chance to get back up, or live to sue you for defending yourself than a reloaded SW500 "grand canyon" hollowpoint might be interesting, but might make more of a mess

 

[Bob J]

The cast boolits guys are working on a 700 grain HP design for the S&W 500... Won't be much left after that hits.....

I don't think it matters as far as liability. The only real reason that I've heard to avoid using reloads for self defense is a greater chance of having a dud or FTF in a situation that you need reliability the most. As long as you trust your reloads completely though, it shouldn't make much of a difference. Besides, if you wanted to make sure the aggressor did not have a chance to get back up, or live to sue you for defending yourself than a reloaded SW500 "grand canyon" hollowpoint might be interesting, but might make more of a mess

 

[FrugalFannie]

Is there any way to tell once a round has been fired if it was a reload or not?

 

[garandman]

Even in Massacrapsetts I have never seen reloads as in issue in a good self defense shoot.If anyone can find a link to a good shoot turned bad because or reloads I would like to see it.

How about New Hampshire, then?

State of New Hampshire v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

And from another case:

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”//

I was told years ago (by the spouse of an FBI agent) that they regularly loaded a "hot" first round, and the rest standard loads, the idea being that this would pass unnoticed. No idea if this was widespread or even true.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

"Your honor, the reason I reload, and use reloads is so that I can make ammunition cheap enough to practice a lot, so that I can shoot accurately. I would not want to accidentally shoot any innocent bystanders. On the other hand, I make sure that my reloads are as effective as factory ammunition so that I can stop any threat which risks my life."

Rap the gavel, adjourn court, and that's that!

 

[Goomba]

Is there any way to tell once a round has been fired if it was a reload or not?

do you mean someone tying to pass off a once shot as a twice shot or more?

 

[pbearperry]

Garandman that is interesting.The best defense for a criminal lawyer is always offense.Cops are always on the attack in court by them.However,not only is this a bit different than what I meant being as the Cop was instigating the stop and not being an innocent being attacked by a felon,the first attempt was a failure.This is a monumental case.Any person using their own homemade ammo could use this case in their favor.
If a person accidently ran over a felon while he was trying to get away from an attack,the only important thing would be if the lethal force used by the car was proper or not.Should the driver be attacked because he ran Hi test gas instead of regular?I hope not.The problem is always the lawyer.There I feel better now.lol

 

[Blitz1]

My carry guns use factory ammo - not because I think it's a bad idea to use reloads, but because I don't reload hollowpoints. One of my HD guns has my reloads in it though.

I know what that would be, I remember you talking about it.

 

[cricco]

Dead is dead. If you are going to have to shoot them, make sure they are [STRIKE]dead[/STRIKE]STOPPED.

You never hear:
Atty: "Your honor, I protest that my client was killed with a stick that was not an approved stick"

or

Atty: "Your honor, I protest that my client was killed with a 2 pound rock when the state only approves the use of 1 pound rocks."

HP's, round nose, SWC's, factory loads, reloads... what's the difference? Dead is dead. And, dead is forever.

If you have to shoot. [STRIKE]KILL[/STRIKE]Stop the threat.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Kicker96FS]

I do not, nor do I know anyone that makes a one off reload for PP. I mean come on, each round in the mag is going to be different?

If they wanted to test my reloads, I have about another 200 rounds they can test for consistency in the personal protection area and an amount that no man can number (joking!) in the target shooting class. (non-hp)

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

+1 Garandman - excellent cites. I don't carry reloads either. Why? Because they make really good ammo for that and I wouldn't presume to be able to best the efforts of the top ammunition manufacturers.

And if I did shoot someone with a reload? I wouldn't be worried about someone trying to portray me as particualry blood thirsty and malicious since the objective of my reloads is to be able to shoot as qucikly and cleanly as possible while (just barely) making PF requirements.

 

[drgrant]

I prefer commercial ammo for carry, but more for things like sealed primers and powders that use flash retardants. I also don't like mucking around
with my seating dies to load up hollow points in 9mm and .45. (Especially considering that the run size might only be a whopping 100 rounds at a
pop. )

-Mike

 

[Gammon]

I don't carry my reloads for personal defense because they MIGHT be an issue in a shooting situation. This is because I know Mr. Ayoob and have a lot of respect for his views, but there are other reasons:

1. Shelf life/reliability. Factory ammo is prepared using primer and neck sealants that prevent the contamination of the primer and powder. Reloads lack this protection. You can apply these sealants yourself, but I find it easier to use factory ammo.

2. I have been able to find ammunition (CorBon is an excellent source) that satisfies my needs and produces ballistics that I would rather not attempt to exceed.

3. It is a lot easier to buy this ammunition than to go through the process of setting up your press and then producing and testing (chronographing) the resulting loads until you get exactly what you want.

My preferred method is to buy the ammuniton I intend to use for self defense, chrono it to make sure I am getting the advertised ballistics out of my gun (and test it for accuracy), and then work up a reload that will allow me to practice with a round similar to the factory load that I carry.

 

[Chrisg67]

i wondered about this myself. not so much for carry, but as spare loads or having in the house (you know, zombies..) most of the jacketed bullets i see for reloading are JHP, and i see no need to spend the cake to reload those if their sole purpose is plinking and you cant keep some stored for backup rounds.

like duke said. dead is dead. how can someone be more dead because you made a round instead of bought one from a mass ammo manufacturer?

 

[Goomba]

like duke said. dead is dead. how can someone be more dead because you made a round instead of bought one from a mass ammo manufacturer?

thats not the point at all, most bullets would do the job fine, the question was would you prefer your own reloads for PP or store bought.

 

[Chrisg67]

thats not the point at all, most bullets would do the job fine, the question was would you prefer your own reloads for PP or store bought.

sorry i meant from more of a legal perspective. i havent started reloading yet. ill stick with the big guys for my protection for now

 

[DukeInFlorida]

I like to carry deadly style (aren't they all deadly??) Hollow Points. I can't AFFORD to shoot thousands of rounds of the style I carry, as factory ammo. That is to say, it's important to me that I shoot a lot, to be proficient at shooting. So, pick any popular factory self defense rounds. . . . I can't afford to shoot thousands of those, so that when I ***HAVE*** to fire them in my carry gun, I have confidence in my shooting ability to hit what I am aiming at.

Sooooooooooo.... I reload my own Hollow Points, and shoot thousands of those. And, that's what I carry in my carry gun. I know exactly how my gun will perform. Whether I fire it at a bad guy on the street, or at a defenseless paper target. It will perform exactly the same way as any one of the thousands of previous rounds at the practice range.

I think it's "foolish" (don't beat me up on that one) to shoot one round at practice, and then shoot a "few" self defense rounds once in a while, and then head out onto the streets of life carrying something that you rarely shoot.

Attorney: "Now, tell me, Mr. Jones. How often do you shoot the rounds that you killed my client with?"

Mr Jones: "Uh, I only shoot them once in a while, because they are so expensive"

Attorney: "Oh, so you would say that you are NOT an expert at shooting those particular rounds?"

You see how silly that is? Using factory rounds can get you in as much trouble as anything.

Call me silly, but I want to shoot (out in the big bad world) exactly what I shoot all the time at the range. What jury is going to have an issue with that?

 

[Goomba]

from what i have found, Kittery sells hornady hp bullets per 100 for $17.00(rounding) and a box of 500 regular lead bullets for $52.00 if I'm not mistaken, that's only 7 cents more a round. granted that a lot of money after shooting as often as some do.

if you don't reload that's a different sorry on exactly how much, im not sure at the moment.

Edit: kittery seems more expensive in some area's so depending on your local gun shop, it could be completely different.

 

[Kicker96FS]

Who is mucking about with the seating die? The JHP and the reg bullets comes out the same length when I ran them through my press.

 

[drgrant]

Who is mucking about with the seating die? The JHP and the reg bullets comes out the same length when I ran them through my press.

If you are moving from FMJ to JHP on a 9mm or .45, you have to adjust the
seater, because the FMJ bullets in those calibers usually have a different
profile, unless you are using TC's or SWCs or something.

For example, if I put .45 JHP's in, my COAL is like 1.220 or something like that, with 230 gr FMJs the COAL is 1.250 or 1.260 depending on the FMJ
bullets I have in stock at the time. The seater has to be altered because the bullet profile is completely different.

In some calibers (eg, .40 S+W) the profile is likely close to the same thing, because all .40 cal pistol bullets are usually truncated cone/flat point anyways- they're basically just hollow points without a hollow space in the top.

It's not a big deal but it is something I prefer to mess with as little as possible.

-Mike