Self Defense 9mm Bullet Weight

67ray

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High speed 9mm like those two are all good. The prob I have is the NOVX claim "as much power as 45ACP". Please - they baost 386 ft-lbs and you easily get 500-600 ft-lbs out of 45. No comparison.

What you see there is marketing. Who shoots clay blocks? The standard is ballistic gel. Why might a company not use the standard in their advertising videos? Hmmmm. . . .

Consider also muzzle flash and reliability and whatever you choose do one thing with it: practice, practice, practice. Make sure your ammo works in your gun, all the time, and don't switch things around. When you get get good reliability, consistency/accuracy stick with it and let that be your carry combo.

.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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If I were going to shoot low grain/high speed 9mm defensive rounds (spoiler, I wouldn't), I'd probably go Liberty Civil Defense +p HP. They claim 2,000 fps and I've seen at least 2 tests chrono'ing them as much, so the other claim of 444 ft-lbs might be accurate. However, with all these super light weight bullets, there's some compelling evidence of low penetration even past soft barriers. Not up to FBI penetration spec, if that matters to you. So that would imply that after initial barrier hit with the specified force, the remaining force really tapers off a cliff from there due to the low mass of the bullet. On the up shot, I've also seen these rounds defeat some common handgun body armor. So if the low penetration after the initial barrier isn't a concern, then might be a good selection.

But man, the prices on this stuff especially now is insane. Makes $0.80 HST Speer Gold Dot look like a bargain in comparison. Even if I drank the Kool Aid about the advantages, there's no way I'd buy/afford this for training.


Argument For (MAC showing it defeat body armor, where ball doesn't work)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6h44Pu4sM



Argument Against (tnoutdoors9 showing ballistic shortcomings)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hZMZM1l04
 

Atlantis

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I think there is something to be said for barrel length here too. Are you carrying a subcompact G43? Are you running a G17? If I understand correctly, the heavier weight bullet can develop more energy from the shorter barrels than a lower weight, so for me, with a G43, I am running Speer Gold Dot 147g.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Literally you're just poking holes in someone with a handgun round. They don't have the hydrostatic shock effect of a rifle round impact so it doesn't matter.

Personally, I would just go with a proven self defense round like HST, Gold Dot, etc.

Agree about sticking with proven rounds like HST/Gold Dot. Also agree that 9mm isn't going to have the hydrostatic shock of a rifle round. However, not all 9mm rounds are created equal, so it is still worth while to see testing information to gauge performance, particularly when a round boasts very high figures like 2k fps.

In my opinion, these light grain rounds all fail in the poking of the holes you mentioned if the target is wearing winter clothing. 4" penetration of ballistics gel could mean sub 1" in a real target if you hit a rib. Not getting to vitals that way, so it does matter.
 

cockpitbob

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Shot placement trumps ballistics. Shoot whatever you shoot best. If someone's 2nd and 3rd shots are way off with powerful 9mm self defense loads but dead center with their .380, guess which I would recommend they carry.

With my little LC9s I like 147gr better than 115. Slightly more thumpy than snappy. Ammo is HST. For defense ammo I shy away from new, fancy stuff that hasn't been around for enough years to weed out fads and snake oil.
 
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Tinkermatic

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Shot placement trumps ballistics. Shoot whatever you shoot best. If someone's 2nd and 3rd shots are way off with powerful 9mm self defense loads but dead center with their .380, guess which I would recommend they carry.

With my little LC9s I like 147gr better than 115. Slightly more thumpy than snappy.

Came to the same conclusion with my P365.
 

Dennis in MA

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Did you guys READ the articles?? The comments section is the best!

Liberty is the lethal incarnation it claims to be. had a ND and shot my left hand at point blank range. It looked like a grenade went off in my hand. hit just at the palm and the joint of my index finger. Blew my index finger off and exploded my middle finger joint . Dumped ALL of it’s energy in my hand. cops looked for an hour for bullet hole but found nothing but fragments and blood in the ceiling. The back of my hand looked like a tomato hit by a .22. have no doubts about fps claim and that huge hollow point did it’s job. have full mags of it in my 9mm handguns and my ar has 40 ready to go as well as my 308CETME which they claim 3500 fps for. I’am a believer the hard way!!!!

Showing damage on a clay block is meaningless. It'll show you the temp cavity. That's it.

I go on shot placement, shot placement, shot placement, and if that all fails, shot placement and screaming like a little girl.
 

enbloc

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I've created a training video about "9mm projectile weight & speed; and the Importance of it"...
Feel free to take notes.
~Enbloc

BleakScarceEland-size_restricted.gif

P.S. Personally, I'd go with the heavyweight hollow-point Buff Bore myself...
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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Percentage wise, there is no difference between kills with 9mm, .40, .357 or .45.

I posted a thread with a video about that not long ago.

For self defense 9mm, 147g (160g if you can find it), and something that will expand. All the other marketing crap all over the box, I ignore it. I focus on videos that show the true expansion of the bullet when it hits something.

Also, ammo has to be easy to find. If only one website sells it and it comes from a manufacturer that makes 20K rounds per year, no thanks.
 

ronrob

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I have tested Boutique Bullets and use Federal HST in both 124 +P & 147 +P in both of my 9mm sub compacts Sig 365 & Springfield Hellcat. The only Boutique bullet I use is the BB Barnes All Copper in .380 which I have found to be the Ultimate penetration / Expansion... All bullets tested gave me 12" and more penetration.. The 124 +P in Center shows a bit larger Expansion than the 147 but the 147 will penetrate more especially thru Winter Clothes / barriers
2020-08-12 08.34.52.jpg
 
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Rocco Mozz

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I usually carry 9mm in the summer and switch to 45 ACP in the winter. I usually rely on shot placement more with 9mm (all in black on 50 ft NRA target) and use non-self defense rounds and then use Hornady self defense in my 45 ACP but still get adequate shot placement (50 ft NRA target). But I’m actually interested in what others have to say about this.
 
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I try to use a weight and brand that coincides as best as possible together. For instance before the silliness I would use Fed124 or 147 and carry hst in the same weight that I had been practicing.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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I usually carry 9mm in the summer and switch to 45 ACP in the winter. I usually rely on shot placement more with 9mm (all in black on 50 ft NRA target) and use non-self defense rounds and then use Hornady self defense in my 45 ACP but still get adequate shot placement (50 ft NRA target). But I’m actually interested in what others have to say about this.
Shot placement matters for both.
You should use self defense rounds in both.

.45 is not a magic round that instantly drops a bad guy.
 

Toast

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FWIW, my P938 is happier (far fewer failures) with a 124 grain round than a 115.
 

marleythefish

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winchester white box hollow points will do the job just as well as the boutique stuff for a lot less money. if you disagree then i would say you're too focused on minutia that makes no real world difference. given proper shot placement any hollow point will do and i do like heavy for caliber.
 
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drgrant

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124-135 gr. Everything else pretty much has issues. Maybe hot 147s.... All that lightweight high fps gimmick ammo is f***ing garbage. Some 115 is ok, like fed PBLE, , But that’s not very common.
 

Dennis in MA

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You don't need to focus on shot placement if you just use a .40.. [popcorn]

I had a guy once tell me that the 45ACP round was created so that soldiers in Vietnam could take down the Cong. "We needed a round that, if you hit them in the arm, put them on the ground."

[rofl]

Wrong country. Wrong result. Wrong half of the century. LOL

Funny is I could have stepped all over his tiny weenus, but I didn't. He made it a point of pointing out my errors with a freaking highway arrow.
 

drgrant

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FWIW, my P938 is happier (far fewer failures) with a 124 grain round than a 115.
124s generally run 9mm better. More "thumpy" vs snap recoil impulse = better cycling.

winchester white box hollow points will do the job just as well as the boutique stuff for a lot less money. if you disagree then i would say you're too focused on minutia that makes no real world difference. given proper shot placement any hollow point will do and i do like heavy for caliber.
Depends on the ones were talking about here, some of the shitty/cheap jhps are a waste of money, and you might as well just carry ball ammo. Winchester did have a skinflint 147gr jhp load though (sold at walmart, before they caved) that had excellent performance. Also, in some cases, cheap jhps can actually be far /worse/than ball, for a whole variety of reasons... if someone carries jhps its in their best interest to pick something decent.
 
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