Roofing question

[Dennis in MA]

I'm having my roof replaced. Real bad week for it. Started last week. Missed a day b/c of rain. Then this week. Monday OK. Today OK. That's it. Hard to get a good days work in with it going to rain the next day.

Anyhow, I was waiting for my son's bus to pick him up today when they were pulling shingles off of a section of the roof that was done about 18 years ago. On an addition.

THERE WAS NO TAR PAPER!

They said it was "common" about 20 yrs ago to not tar-paper a roof. WTF,O??? I've never heard of that in the modern era. I've seen it on old old houses. But something done in 1999 or so, it seems strange.

Thoughts? Am I over-reacting? (I'm thinking about if a single shingle lifts, it's more likely to cause a leak.)

These guys are great. Big fat swath of ice&water shield on the edge. Tar paper the remainder. Good quality shingles. But strange that my "family friend" builder 18 years ago stiffed me on tar paper.

EDIT

DAMMIT! Wrong forum. Sorry.

 

[Choctaw]

I would have been surprised also. It isn't a huge cost investment for an added layer of protection.

 

[headednorth]

I was roofing 20 years ago and we always used paper. Occasionally did a strip off where we found no paper underneath. No very often though. Heard back then it was common in NH but don't know how true.that was.

- - - Updated - - -

I would have been surprised also. It isn't a huge cost investment for an added layer of protection.

This. It's about as cheap an insurance as you can.get.

 

[NHCraigT]

I've seen that on a number of MA roofs, in the 17 & 18 year-old home range.

Do not necessarily blame the builder, the roofing contractor may have whipped that roof on in a day or 2 (or over a weekend), and the builder may not have been aware that roofing felt (tar paper) was not installed.

BTW - We use synthetic felt + "weather membrane" (the new name being used by Manufacturers, instead of "Ice & Water") these days, more so than tar paper.
Synthetic underlayment is less SF cost and safer to walk on with its factory non-skid surface texture.


I see more 17 & 18 year old roofs with no drip edge installed, than anything else. I think its because they slapped the original roof on during the then new-home- development construction phase, before the roof eave trim boards were installed, just to get the house "weather tight" asap.

 

[W.E.C]

Did it leak?
Yes - > get mad at your buddy.
No? > then you didn't get wind driven rain or a broken shingle that the tarpaper is used for.
to double protect and shed water back on to the next course of shingles.

 

[sbi]

Not sure what the issue is. You are doing a new roof which will most likely be tar-papered.

 

[Oldarmy]

I have seen roofs done without felt, just cheap skinflinters if you ask me. Sounds like your having it done right so do sweat what's in the past.

 

[Mark from MA]

This was common practice by some roofers who were skinflints 20 years ago. Of course if your roof failed, the shingle manufacturer would immediately have an out...because in their instructions on the package is to.....use tar paper. Got pictures and everything on each package for the morons that can't read......

So yes....not using tar paper is basically taking your roofing warranty and pissing it down the toilet.....but you couldn't explain this to the jackwagons I used to deal with during that time period. They would have more excuses....oh...use tar paper...shingles won't lay flat, it's unneeded roof will never leak...etc.

When I do a roof, I ice and water the whole roof, then use tar paper (15 or 30# felt) (which is synthetic nowadays if you want), then use shingles. Six nails per shingle in high wind areas....we are a high wind area. Another out for the manufacturer if you don't. Drip edge, up the sides and on the face of the roof. Is it more money, yes...its it a lot more money, no.

For those that cry overkill....... Do I have to tarp the roof in the middle of doing it because of a rainstorm, no. Do I save time which equals money by not having to...yes. Do I tarp it anyway...probably, but just because I'm like that. Also...for those of you that rake your roof cause of snow....and only have that first 3 feet of ice and water, if you rake your roof back 3 feet, you now cause a dam to start above your ice and water. By doing ice and water on the whole roof...or at least 6 feet up, it helps with that. Also all valleys and ridges that are not vented should have ice and water as well.

So remember all this when that crew of Brazillians comes in to bang out that roof job in one day and the price was so awesome. And pretty much the whole reason why I would never do roofing for a living because I could never make money at it. Most people look at bottom dollar and not quality when it comes to these things.

 

[pastera]

My house was built in 95 and just had the roof done last fall - No felt and the Ice&Water was stapled down with the backing paper still on it.

New roof has Ice&Water three feet up past the conditioned space (finished attic) and synthec felt - Between the solar and lighter color shingles the attic room temps dropped 20+ degrees this summer.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I was more shocked than anything. Wanted to know if it was common. I didn't think so. My roofer didn't, but he cares more about my house than I do, so his opinion is jaded.

Stapled IWS - I guess I've been beat. LOL

 

[dhuze]

I've been building and roofing since 1985 and we almost never used tar paper. We put a row of Ice and Water Shield on the first course and in any valley and that was it. The shingles do the job of stopping water from penetrating.

If I was putting on cedar shingles I'd use tar paper because they can shrink.

 

[grizquad]

We had roof done here in Ma. about 9 years ago and original was from 86. and there was several sections w/o tar paper. New roof had lots of ice/dam seal put down.

 

[mbullism]

I redid mine about 5 years ago, house built 1986. Stripped the originals because they were too bad to roof over... no paper. New roof went on with "paper" and ice & water. Went back later and looked in the building code in effect at the time and could find no requirement for it.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Not surprising at all. I've stripped many a roof that had no paper at all and some with no starter course. And more than a few that were nailed improperly and flashed wrong too. There are far more hacks with hammers than there are quality carpenters out there.
I used to do warranty repair/re-roof work for a major shingle manufacturer, and if we found an improperly installed roof, like one without felt paper, the warranty was void.

 

[NHCraigT]

I've been building and roofing since 1985 and we almost never used tar paper. We put a row of Ice and Water Shield on the first course and in any valley and that was it. The shingles do the job of stopping water from penetration....
.

As stated in a previous post, unfortunately, that install practice will void shingle manufacturer warranties.

As another builder, also since 1985, I am a firm believer in installing all materials and building components to manufacturer standards, as it protects the home owner on any possible future issues arising from material and component failures (and yes, they do occur).

The first thing manufacturer reps look for on a call out for a warranty issue is if something was installed per their standards and per stipulated local code requirements.

IMHO, If someone is not installing per spec, then they are doing a disservice to their client = the property owner, who is entrusting them with one of their largest financial investments.

 

[Franko]

My house was built in 1988. The previous owner watched them install the shingles without tar paper. He told him he wanted tar paper but they did it without anyway. when the GC showed up on the job he told him his guys did not use tar paper. Roof was done, made him strip 33 square and re do it. I just had it redone last year. They did ice and water sheild all the way around for the first 6 feet and used Rhino liner for the rest of the roof.

 

[Enzo]

When I was building a house 20 years ago I saw a lot of houses being built in very expensive developments that were all wafer board, no felt paper under the shingles and 15 year shingles.

 

[garandman]

I was roofing 20 years ago and we always used paper. Occasionally did a strip off where we found no paper underneath. No very often though. Heard back then it was common in NH but don't know how true.that was.

We replaced the 1987 asphalt shingle roof with metal in 2014.

No tar paper found.

 

[gerrycaruso]

Don't kill your family friend just yet. He may have heard the same thing that I heard which was that felt paper was not a good idea. That's changed and now many customers want ice & water shield on the entire roof.

 

[mikelawtown]

Had mine done about 5 years ago and house was built in 87 , no paper. I also had them do 6 feet ice and water instead of the 3 feet. Cut a ridge vent up there also and new soffit venting, so far no ice dams.

 

[cape cod basser]

My house was built in 96 and we had the roof done two years ago. Same thing, No paper underneath.

 

[headednorth]

Don't kill your family friend just yet. He may have heard the same thing that I heard which was that felt paper was not a good idea. That's changed and now many customers want ice & water shield on the entire roof.

I could of sworn I remember reading somewhere that the IWS acts like a vapor barrier so in certain circumstances that could cause a problem if there's a vapor barrier on the inside as well. Any moisture that finds its way in somehow is trapped between two vb's with no where to go. Maybe it was foam insulation sprayed onto the underside of the roof sheathing that was acting as a vb? Cant remember the specifics now.

So remember all this when that crew of Brazillians comes in to bang out that roof job in one day and the price was so awesome. And pretty much the whole reason why I would never do roofing for a living because I could never make money at it. Most people look at bottom dollar and not quality when it comes to these things.

Its not easy competing with our friends from the south. The average dipshit homeowner loves to marvel at how hard they work, very reasonable price, etc. "Couldnt believe how fast that guy was with that nailgun!!" Well there is a specific nailing pattern that the manufacturer wants to see. Theres a re-enforcement strip bonded to the back side of the shingle. The nail is supposed to go above the cutout (of a three tab shingle at least) and through that strip. Four nails per shingle, six for high wind area. Maybe he's really good and gets every nail through the strip and evenly spaced. Or maybe he's all over the road and some are landing above the strip and some are landing below it and not being covered by the course above. Either way, its not according to manufacturers specs, so if you have a problem, good luck getting them to cover your ass. But yeah, he is fast.

Non-roof related. Guy in work had his house painted by "Mexicans" (according to him). Forget how he came across the guy, but he asks him for a price to paint his two family colonial. Co-worker has it in his mind no matter what the guy gives him for a price he's going to act shocked to see if he can get it lower. Guy comes back with a price of $2400-scraped, caulked, primed, with two top coats. (co-worker supplying the paint) "What! thats outrageous! Can you do any better?" Painter calls back, "Ok, $1600." Prep, prime and 2 coats of finish on a two family home, two stories, gable ends, for $1600.

 

[In God We Trust]

Don't kill your family friend just yet. He may have heard the same thing that I heard which was that felt paper was not a good idea. That's changed and now many customers want ice & water shield on the entire roof.

As a former roofer, that seems like a terrible waste of money. If $ was no object, I would do it on my house just as insurance, but there is really no need for it. If you use 30 lb felt and good shingles, the roof will outlive the warranty barring any natural disasters.

 

[Mark from MA]

I could of sworn I remember reading somewhere that the IWS acts like a vapor barrier so in certain circumstances that could cause a problem if there's a vapor barrier on the inside as well. Any moisture that finds its way in somehow is trapped between two vb's with no where to go. Maybe it was foam insulation sprayed onto the underside of the roof sheathing that was acting as a vb? .

In most cases the plywood on the inside of the roof should be open to air. Thats why you have the foam vent pieces from the entrance to the soffit vent up into the open attic. Or in insulated cathedrals going all the way up to the ridge vent from the soffit vents Otherwise you get mold and the roof doesnt breathe and will form dams.

I know its getting popular but i dont think i would spray foam anything especially the back of interior roof plywood. Besides in about 5 years
They will find out that shxt breaks down, off gases formaldehyde or something and gives the occupants lung cancer

 

[Dennis in MA]

Don't kill your family friend just yet. He may have heard the same thing that I heard which was that felt paper was not a good idea. That's changed and now many customers want ice & water shield on the entire roof.

Oh there are several reasons to want him kilt. The problem is he's gotta be 60-something now. I just let him be. But he poorly insulated the 2 dormers they put in OVER the farmer's porch. So we get all sorts of heat-leakage to the farmers' porch, leading to ice dams - esp. over the mudroom entrance to the house. When they were doing the work, it was February. He didn't believe - WHILE HTE HOUSE WAS WIDE OPEN AND NO PLASTER that it shouldn't be cold up there.

He was in a bad spot back then. Late 40's. Tired. Worked hard all his life. Business going to pot. (Lost 3 workers in 3 months. Actually had to swing a hammer again.) He brought in a GREAT framing crew. And used real plywood on the entire addition. So I'm appreciative of that. But there were corners he cut that made no sense.

Non-roof related. Guy in work had his house painted by "Mexicans" (according to him). Forget how he came across the guy, but he asks him for a price to paint his two family colonial. Co-worker has it in his mind no matter what the guy gives him for a price he's going to act shocked to see if he can get it lower. Guy comes back with a price of $2400-scraped, caulked, primed, with two top coats. (co-worker supplying the paint) "What! thats outrageous! Can you do any better?" Painter calls back, "Ok, $1600." Prep, prime and 2 coats of finish on a two family home, two stories, gable ends, for $1600.

$1,600 would barely be enough for supplies if he wanted it done right. Wow!

In most cases the plywood on the inside of the roof should be open to air. Thats why you have the foam vent pieces from the entrance to the soffit vent up into the open attic. Or in insulated cathedrals going all the way up to the ridge vent from the soffit vents Otherwise you get mold and the roof doesnt breathe and will form dams.

I know its getting popular but i dont think i would spray foam anything especially the back of interior roof plywood. Besides in about 5 years
They will find out that shxt breaks down, off gases formaldehyde or something and gives the occupants lung cancer

Concur. And if you aren't USING the attic space, what's the point of spray-foaming it??? Although IIRC that if you are wall-boarding the spaces, you DON'T need to worry about air-flow. Something about how the covered spray-foam makes it almost like a continuous 6" deep unit so no need for venting.

My attic is tiny and I just tossed a second coat of pink insulation to solve any thermal issues. It's actually too small to store anything up there. All you do is crawl around. Yuck.

 

[Mark from MA]

As a former roofer, that seems like a terrible waste of money. If $ was no object, I would do it on my house just as insurance, but there is really no need for it. If you use 30 lb felt and good shingles, the roof will outlive the warranty barring any natural disasters.

It generally is a bit of a waste, your correct.....but I always give people the option of more than 6 feet from the edges (that's the minimum I'd do, not 3 feet)

Generally I give people a deal and do it for cost, as it makes the roof pretty much watertight and don't have to worry about tarping it, or water issues after that should you get poor weather for a day or so if I haven't finished shingling.

 

[Mark from MA]

Although IIRC that if you are wall-boarding the spaces, you DON'T need to worry about air-flow. Something about how the covered spray-foam makes it almost like a continuous 6" deep unit so no need for venting.

You always need to worry about air flow and venting. There should be convection in the attic..if you spray foam on it and block airflow then close it up with board your blocking the vent flow from the soffit vents to the ridge vents. Essentially those systems are not working anymore.

I'm not super familiar with the spray foam, if the plywood would breathe enough between the roofing and the foam...no idea.

 

[mikey98e]

I'm having my roof replaced. Real bad week for it. Started last week. Missed a day b/c of rain. Then this week. Monday OK. Today OK. That's it. Hard to get a good days work in with it going to rain the next day.

Anyhow, I was waiting for my son's bus to pick him up today when they were pulling shingles off of a section of the roof that was done about 18 years ago. On an addition.

THERE WAS NO TAR PAPER!

They said it was "common" about 20 yrs ago to not tar-paper a roof. WTF,O??? I've never heard of that in the modern era. I've seen it on old old houses. But something done in 1999 or so, it seems strange.

Thoughts? Am I over-reacting? (I'm thinking about if a single shingle lifts, it's more likely to cause a leak.)

These guys are great. Big fat swath of ice&water shield on the edge. Tar paper the remainder. Good quality shingles. But strange that my "family friend" builder 18 years ago stiffed me on tar paper.

EDIT

DAMMIT! Wrong forum. Sorry.

Our roof was done in 1986 before we bought the house. We had constant water leakage with ice dams. In 1999 when I finally saved up enough for a new roof, we had a new roof installed and found that there was no tar paper and no ice shield no nothing.
-mike

 

[SpencerT]

You always need to worry about air flow and venting. There should be convection in the attic..if you spray foam on it and block airflow then close it up with board your blocking the vent flow from the soffit vents to the ridge vents. Essentially those systems are not working anymore.

I'm not super familiar with the spray foam, if the plywood would breathe enough between the roofing and the foam...no idea.

I own a spray foam company in Nashua NH so I'm very familiar with this topic. Most of the time i spray right on the sheathing but I can use plastic pvents (foam melts the pink styrofoam ones) from the soffit to the ridge then spray 3" of closed cell on it and fill the remainder of the rafter bay with fiberglass or net and pack cellulose. This allows air movement under the sheathing, mostly it just cools the underside of the shingles.

The reason we we aren't concerned wth venting the space is that we don't have the cold framing in the attic for the warm air to condense on building a base for mold to grow, really the only way for moisture to get into an assembly that has foam directly on the sheathing is via a roof leak. I don't typically encourage a hot roof unless the customer has a furnace or ac unit in the attic otherwise they are just increasing the volume of conditioned space for no reason.

With the increasing attention the tight insulated assemblies we do have to worry about bringing air into the house to exhaust stale air and provide air for people pets combustion appliances etc but I am a firm believer in building it tight and filing in ventilation via HRV or ERV because this allows us to control how much excess energy we are wasting just allowing the house to leak all over the place.

 

[Dennis in MA]

After multiple rain-outs, the boys were back this AM to strip the final roof.

ORIGINAL 1994 roof (not the 1999-2000 addition). NO FREAKING TAR PAPER!!!!!!!!!

No wonder I had water damage from ice dams 3 years ago. There was NOTHING to prevent it.

Roof will be done today. Whew! Another worry off my head. House is getting well buttoned up. Jolly good!