'Roger That'

dwarven1 said:
In Appleseed, we tell the shooters to "check your ego at the door".
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Hats off to the Appleseed instructors! You guys put up with a lot of newbs and get paid nothing..

The BEST training day I ever had was the second day at an Appleseed. The first day there were a bunch of THAT GUY, the "oh, I have my new rifle and need to site it in--maybe I should clean it first" people combined with the "how to do you work this, I borrowed it from a friend" people.

But on the second day there were NONE of "that guy" the THAT GUYs didn't come back and the few shooters left had a blast. We were burning through tests and when we went out to the longer range eventually one of the instructors joined us in shooting and then we all tried out each others rifles after completing the tests way ahead of schedule. There were NO safety issues and we helped the instructors clean up and put everything away. It just worked magically. I like to think that a day like that is what keeps the Appleseed instructors motivated.
 
edmorseiii said:
It's not always that they want to argue about it, some folks just fall apart when you start correcting them. Like Stu said, it's kind of a mindset thing.
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I think it's a male retard ego thing. Some of these people probably take these courses don't think that they suck, and the reality is they probably do. If they don't have the mindset of "I suck and I want to get better" then they turn into like 10 year old bratty douchebags and close themselves off to actually learning something. It's especially bad at the beginning, because I was one of those douchebags, not to the degree ruining a class or something like the shitbirds Stu is talking about, but instead of LISTENING and attempting to do it someone else's way I'd revert to my old crap methods. When I started shooting I was abysmally bad, and I still suck but not like I did then.... the first major tier of improvement for me was when I started listening to people that clearly knew more about it than I did and doing the shit they told me to do... and magically, things got a LOT better. Woah hoa! shocking! [laugh]


-Mike
 
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It's also worth noting that if you're ever taking instruction on anything from firearms to driving to typing, if you don't have a "roger that" moment anywhere in the class, you and/or your instructor are doing it wrong.
 
screw that I paid good money and here you are going to treat me like crap? just give me my participation trophy so I can go home and say I took the course already
 
Boghog1 said:
screw that I paid good money and here you are going to treat me like crap? just give me my participation trophy so I can go home and say I took the course already
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I frame all my certificates and hang them on my cubicle walls so my coworkers know that I'm a hardcore operator even if they couldn't tell by my tactical 5.11 pants.
 
Boghog1 said:
screw that I paid good money and here you are going to treat me like crap? just give me my participation trophy so I can go home and say I took the course already
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CFS_chips.jpg
 
I was helping a soldier not too long ago trying to qualify / zero his M4. I was extremely nice at first making him self correct himself several time. 20 rds later I went into ok bud this is what you are not doing right.....All I kept hearing was "but", "but", "but".....its not comfortable. I looked at him and said "how about you STfU and do what I tell you if you want to zero your M4".
 
I don't have time to go back and quote everyone, but of course there are exceptions to my OP. I'm just speaking generally. The instructor can pre-frame expectations all the want, but in the end, what drgrant said is SPOT ON. Male ego has a lot to do with it.

Anyways, here's a great song to cap off my feelings.

 
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Artifact said:
I was helping a soldier not too long ago trying to qualify / zero his M4. I was extremely nice at first making him self correct himself several time. 20 rds later I went into ok bud this is what you are not doing right.....All I kept hearing was "but", "but", "but".....its not comfortable. I looked at him and said "how about you STfU and do what I tell you if you want to zero your M4".
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Reverse the roles...you get the idea

http://youtu.be/J6aKZf0g06Y
 
Cloverleaf Firearms Group said:
General Disclaimer: This isn't aimed at anyone. It's a discussion that I had with edmorseiii, jibbr, and Mrs. edmorseiii recently. It has to do with situations that I've seen all over, from classes I've taken... to classes I teach. They have experienced the same type of stuff. Ed is the one that tossed out the term 'Roger That' and it kind of stuck for the discussion.

The thread title says it all, and it's not about saying 'Roger That' to people. It's a mindset that you should probably develop if you want to train hard in more advanced courses. If you don't have a Mil or LE background, you are probably less likely to have experienced this. It's not a dig. It's just a fact that the MAJORITY of the people I come across who don't have this mindset, don't have this background.

If you graduated from any type of boot camp or academy, you know that training is designed to induce pressure. One of the ways to induce that kind of pressure is to make sure your cadet/boot/etc is never right. NEVER. When a Drill Instructor asks you why you suck at something, it's not really a question that you are going to be able to answer correctly, because there isn't a correct answer. This eventually creates a mindset that pressure is no longer as effective because you just say something to the effect of 'Roger That', 'Aye Aye' 'Sir Yes Sir', 'Understood' take your lumps and move on.

Again, I feel I have to reiterate this because it's the internet. I'm not trying to paint an elitist picture of mil/le folks in classes. There are plenty that are soup sandwiches compared to friends I have that aren't mil/le. The issue is that during a class, if you get corrected on something, or called out... TAKE IT. Shut your mouth and move on. Make the correction. It's nothing personal. Anything other than that is wasting time. Save it for a break. I've screwed up and been yelled at in classes. It's a kick in the ego sometimes, but 'Roger That' the **** up. In mid level and advanced shooting classes, people can and have gotten shot. It's not like people are baking cakes, so in order to maintain that level of seriousness and focus, you may run into instructors that will get on you. If hurt feelings throw you off of your shooting game, you really aren't cut out for those classes yet.

If an instructor corrects you, it's not time to explain anything or make excuses unless they genuinely want to know. It's definitely NOT a time to talk about how another instructor does it different. That is all coming from ego and being defensive. If the issues are because you failed to check your gear, or your ammo, or your batteries... GO FIX IT. Don't stand there like a mope wasting your time and $$, and everyone elses time and $$.

I was recently at a class at Sig that had a dude who was WAY out of his lane. He took up a lot of time asking questions about shit that didn't matter, and then would drone on when corrected about why he was screwing up. Over the 5 days, he easily wasted a few hours of training. We eventually handled it as a class, but don't be that guy. He was running a weapon platform he wasn't accustomed to, and when corrected, was embarrassed.... so rambled on instead of 'Roger That'. It's a simple concept that can really make your training experience a hell of a lot better.

-CFG
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Sounds like a good way for instructors to begin their presentations to their students. I'm thinking that if the SIG instructor didn't advise people of what to expect, then a couple of lines advising the students of what to expect and why might be in order.

Something simple that says we're going to correct you, don't take it personally if we're short and to the point. This is a dangerous activity, and we all want to go home at the end of the class. If we correct you, just listen and learn and move on.
 
kalash said:
When I sign up for a class it's obviously for the instructor's benefit, duh. YOU SHOULD BE HONORED IF I TALK BACK TO YOU!


But seriously, do people really get their panties twisted when someone they are paying to show them how to perform better actually... tells them what they're doing wrong?
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yes
and then some
 
NHAtHeart said:
This is no different than anything else in life. The guy sitting their arguing about why his cup and saucer grip is far superior is the same guy arguing why it's not his fault the project didn't get completed on time.

Some people just can't take responsibility for themselves.
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Dude, Jack Bauer was in your class??

+1 I find this much worse in my workplace than in the (3) shooting classes I've taken. Students were very humble in my Sig classes, though probably cause there were all noob classes.
 

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