'Roger That'

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

General Disclaimer: This isn't aimed at anyone. It's a discussion that I had with edmorseiii, jibbr, and Mrs. edmorseiii recently. It has to do with situations that I've seen all over, from classes I've taken... to classes I teach. They have experienced the same type of stuff. Ed is the one that tossed out the term 'Roger That' and it kind of stuck for the discussion.

The thread title says it all, and it's not about saying 'Roger That' to people. It's a mindset that you should probably develop if you want to train hard in more advanced courses. If you don't have a Mil or LE background, you are probably less likely to have experienced this. It's not a dig. It's just a fact that the MAJORITY of the people I come across who don't have this mindset, don't have this background.

If you graduated from any type of boot camp or academy, you know that training is designed to induce pressure. One of the ways to induce that kind of pressure is to make sure your cadet/boot/etc is never right. NEVER. When a Drill Instructor asks you why you suck at something, it's not really a question that you are going to be able to answer correctly, because there isn't a correct answer. This eventually creates a mindset that pressure is no longer as effective because you just say something to the effect of 'Roger That', 'Aye Aye' 'Sir Yes Sir', 'Understood' take your lumps and move on.

Again, I feel I have to reiterate this because it's the internet. I'm not trying to paint an elitist picture of mil/le folks in classes. There are plenty that are soup sandwiches compared to friends I have that aren't mil/le. The issue is that during a class, if you get corrected on something, or called out... TAKE IT. Shut your mouth and move on. Make the correction. It's nothing personal. Anything other than that is wasting time. Save it for a break. I've screwed up and been yelled at in classes. It's a kick in the ego sometimes, but 'Roger That' the **** up. In mid level and advanced shooting classes, people can and have gotten shot. It's not like people are baking cakes, so in order to maintain that level of seriousness and focus, you may run into instructors that will get on you. If hurt feelings throw you off of your shooting game, you really aren't cut out for those classes yet.

If an instructor corrects you, it's not time to explain anything or make excuses unless they genuinely want to know. It's definitely NOT a time to talk about how another instructor does it different. That is all coming from ego and being defensive. If the issues are because you failed to check your gear, or your ammo, or your batteries... GO FIX IT. Don't stand there like a mope wasting your time and $$, and everyone elses time and $$.

I was recently at a class at Sig that had a dude who was WAY out of his lane. He took up a lot of time asking questions about shit that didn't matter, and then would drone on when corrected about why he was screwing up. Over the 5 days, he easily wasted a few hours of training. We eventually handled it as a class, but don't be that guy. He was running a weapon platform he wasn't accustomed to, and when corrected, was embarrassed.... so rambled on instead of 'Roger That'. It's a simple concept that can really make your training experience a hell of a lot better.

-CFG

 

[noxin]

"You" signed up for the class/training to improve. By bitching about correction you defeat the entire purpose of the training. Accept it, process it, implement it. No one's perfect and even the best "whatevers" get learn something new from every situation.

 

[DarthRevan]

Point taken

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

Point taken

Well played.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Roger That !!

 

[ChevyGuy91]

It's funny, sometimes I don't even realize I do it. I was in a class a few weeks ago and we were running a high stress, dangerous, drill and the instructor threw a "SWITCH THE **** ON, DUDE! I caught you sleeping." at me and I just said rgr that and moved on. I wasn't day dreaming, in fact the dude behind me leaned forward and said "I think that was meant for me, not you.". No big deal, it made me open my eyes a little wider, focus harder, and move a little sharper.

 

[kalash]

When I sign up for a class it's obviously for the instructor's benefit, duh. YOU SHOULD BE HONORED IF I TALK BACK TO YOU!


But seriously, do people really get their panties twisted when someone they are paying to show them how to perform better actually... tells them what they're doing wrong?

 

[DrBurnsides]

What 5 day class at sig did you take? Just curious..

 

[ChevyGuy91]

When I sign up for a class it's obviously for the instructor's benefit, duh. YOU SHOULD BE HONORED IF I TALK BACK TO YOU!


But seriously, do people really get their panties twisted when someone they are paying to show them how to perform better actually... tells them what they're doing wrong?

It's not always that they want to argue about it, some folks just fall apart when you start correcting them. Like Stu said, it's kind of a mindset thing.

 

[noxin]

When I sign up for a class it's obviously for the instructor's benefit, duh. YOU SHOULD BE HONORED IF I TALK BACK TO YOU!


But seriously, do people really get their panties twisted when someone they are paying to show them how to perform better actually... tells them what they're doing wrong?

I've had people talk back during a basic motorcycle class. I can only imagine the ego in a shooters class.

 

[DarthRevan]

Well played.

Yeah that was completely reactionary, but looking at it again, I giggled.

 

[xtry51]

"You" signed up for the class/training to improve. By bitching about correction you defeat the entire purpose of the training. Accept it, process it, implement it. No one's perfect and even the best "whatevers" get learn something new from every situation.

There are a lot of people that treat going to a training class like showing up to a competitive shooting event, instead of a learning opportunity. It's a problem, mostly for them, but it can bleed over. You specifically take a training class to be told what you are doing wrong, not to compete agains the guys around you.

On stress:

If there's anything I've learned from taking classes over the years it's that instructors WILL, like DIs, intentionally **** with you to apply pressure. Especially if they know you already. It's a test to see how you deal with that pressure, and it's arguable that dealing with pressure/duress is the single most important thing you can learn from training.

Nothing will get you killed faster than derailing yourself mentally in the middle of a deadly engagement. I botched a drill in the last class we just took literally because while I was running the drill I ****ing ramped myself up mentally about when I was going to run dry on my rifle and need to transition. I knew it was coming somewhere in the drill, but not exactly when. Instead of just letting it go, focusing on the drill and dealing with it as it happened, I got so balled up by the time it happened, I executed the transition, took my shots and then..... STOPPED as if the drill was over. Well, I had one more station left and totally ****ing blanked "sky lining" myself as a certain instructor would say like a retard who forgot there was another bad guy and then died.

Now here's the learning point: Why did I do that? Why was I concentrating so hard on the transition? Because the instructor called out the dude who went right before me for not knowing that he was out of mags for the rifle when he went dry and not transitioning fast enough. I let the stress of worrying about not making that singular mistake create a situation where I made several others.

Recognizing that mistake, being able to admit you were at fault and concentrating not on the mistake but the wisdom that comes from understanding why to not let it happen again is some of the most powerful knowledge you can gain. The key is, you have to be willing to "roger that" before any of the actual learning from that event can happen. Otherwise you end up focusing on excuses rather than solutions.

 

[kalash]

There are a lot of people that treat going to a training class like showing up to a competitive shooting event, instead of a learning opportunity.

To be fair, there is some overlap between the two. The difference is that while in a competition you compete against both yourself and others, in a class you should compete only against yourself. The frustrating part is when you "lose" that in-class competition because you learned that you were doing something wrong and switching to the correct thing has made you slower, since you haven't practiced it.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

There are a lot of people that treat going to a training class like showing up to a competitive shooting event, instead of a learning opportunity. It's a problem, mostly for them, but it can bleed over. You specifically take a training class to be told what you are doing wrong, not to compete agains the guys around you.

On stress:

If there's anything I've learned from taking classes over the years it's that instructors WILL, like DIs, intentionally **** with you to apply pressure. Especially if they know you already. It's a test to see how you deal with that pressure, and it's arguable that dealing with pressure/duress is the single most important thing you can learn from training.

Nothing will get you killed faster than derailing yourself mentally in the middle of a deadly engagement. I botched a drill in the last class we just took literally because while I was running the drill I ****ing ramped myself up mentally about when I was going to run dry on my rifle and need to transition. I knew it was coming somewhere in the drill, but not exactly when. Instead of just letting it go, focusing on the drill and dealing with it as it happened, I got so balled up by the time it happened, I executed the transition, took my shots and then..... STOPPED as if the drill was over. Well, I had one more station left and totally ****ing blanked "sky lining" myself as a certain instructor would say like a retard who forgot there was another bad guy and then died.

Now here's the learning point: Why did I do that? Why was I concentrating so hard on the transition? Because the instructor called out the dude who went right before me for not knowing that he was out of mags for the rifle when he went dry and not transitioning fast enough. I let the stress of worrying about not making that singular mistake create a situation where I made several others.

Recognizing that mistake, being able to admit you were at fault and concentrating not on the mistake but the wisdom that comes from understanding why to not let it happen again is some of the most powerful knowledge you can gain. The key is, you have to be willing to "roger that" before any of the actual learning from that event can happen. Otherwise you end up focusing on excuses rather than solutions.

100%

I can think of so many mistakes, and embarrassing dumb shits that I've done in courses over the last 10 years. I wouldn't trade any of them because they have all, in one way or another, shaped the shooter that I am right now.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Sometimes it's best to be humble, STFU and listen

 

[timbo]

Navy boot camp was the single biggest game changer in my life. I learned that when the pressure is on, there is no time for questions....do the task at hand and if, after the job is done and you still have questions, that's the time to ask them...but more than that, I learned to take constructive criticism with a yes sir or an aye aye. Boot camp is designed to tear you down as a person and build you up as a cohesive unit. There is no place for "me" and "I" any longer. That was a hard lesson for a shy, loner, country boy to learn but you learn or die...simple as that. The lessons learned in Boot camp carried me through flight crew training and SERE school.

 

[Another_David]

a good instructor should be handling that.

I know that's easier said then done but it starts with the intro talk, "check your ego at the door. when you're here learning from us we're going to ask you to do it our way. Don't be offended if it's not YOUR preferred way--just try it. When you leave here do it your way and we won't be offended if it not our preferred method."

Maybe in the OP's advanced class scenario the instructor would say something like, "we're going to practice like we perform and hopefully we'll performed like we practiced, which means NO CHIT CHAT--you ain't going to be debating mag orientation with your buddy when someone is shooting at you are you? ARE YOU?"

But point taken, DON'T BE THAT GUY.

 

[Spanz]

for some reason I want to hum Roger Wilco Over and Out....

 

[NHAtHeart]

This is no different than anything else in life. The guy sitting their arguing about why his cup and saucer grip is far superior is the same guy arguing why it's not his fault the project didn't get completed on time.

Some people just can't take responsibility for themselves.

 

[Admin]

But seriously, do people really get their panties twisted when someone they are paying to show them how to perform better actually... tells them what they're doing wrong?

Only stupid people.

 

[MachineHead]

Great post, CFG. There are people who, when being corrected, follow up with an immediate defense of "I was just saying that..." or "Well, I was in another class where..."

They tend to point themselves out in many settings where anything is being taught. They're the ones that usually screw up and look foolish in front of everyone.

A little humility goes a long way.

 

[atilla]

took my shots and then..... STOPPED as if the drill was over.

i've done this exact thing, that and working on my reloads. both times i was told bluntly that if i kept doing those things they could potentially be the last thing i ever ****ed up--because i'd be dead.

that stuck with me.

 

[Sprocket]

CFG, I could write a small chapter in the book of "mistakes made while training", or maybe a small book - either way.

The first class I took I had to decide to apply myself in the context and learn what was being taught or not. Turned out if I was being addressed, it's because I needed the attention to correct an issue - small, medium or large.

The last class I took I should not have taken for personal reasons.

 

[gearwhore14]

Agree but you need to balance this with asking questions when you don't understand something. Don't make excuses and don't hold up training, but when you pay big money for a class you should be able to find the instructor on a break and ask for clarity if you did not understand what or why you were being corrected or else you may likely repeat the mistake.

 

[Chet0729]

I have taken a lot of training classes on different things in my life and there is always that one guy in the class. The stupid question guy, the argue with the instructor guy. i have always felt bad for the instructors in these classes as it makes it difficult for them to do there job and stay on schedule.

 

[Sprocket]

Agree but you need to balance this with asking questions when you don't understand something. Don't make excuses and don't hold up training, but when you pay big money for a class you should be able to find the instructor on a break and ask for clarity if you did not understand what or why you were being corrected or else you may likely repeat the mistake.

I'll often ask, "Say that again please?" or something similar - the language changes and then the message become clear. Students need to find instructors they can learn from, you're spinning your wheel otherwise.

 

[dwarven1]

In Appleseed, we tell the shooters to "check your ego at the door".

"You" signed up for the class/training to improve. By bitching about correction you defeat the entire purpose of the training. Accept it, process it, implement it. No one's perfect and even the best "whatevers" get learn something new from every situation.

Yup. If I know more than the instructor, I'm obviously in the wrong class and should leave... and if I DON'T know more than him or her, I need to concentrate on LEARNING what I'm being taught.

Sometimes it's best to be humble, STFU and listen

Oh, Lord, it's hard to be humble...

- - - Updated - - -

Agree but you need to balance this with asking questions when you don't understand something. Don't make excuses and don't hold up training, but when you pay big money for a class you should be able to find the instructor on a break and ask for clarity if you did not understand what or why you were being corrected or else you may likely repeat the mistake.

Ask when you're corrected if you don't understand something. There's probably someone else there who didn't get it, either, and is too embarrassed to speak up.

 

[allen-1]

I'll often ask, "Say that again please?" or something similar - the language changes and then the message become clear. Students need to find instructors they can learn from, you're spinning your wheel otherwise.

I tend to say "Say that differently please, I didn't understand", and good instructors will say it differently. It's my job to listen and understand. I go to class to learn.

There's always, always, always that one ahole who's there to show the class that he's the smartest kid in the room and he wastes so much time arguing with the teacher or showing off -- you just want to clobber him. A good teacher will shut him down.

I'm an RSO, and several months ago I started walking forward while the line was hot. The RSO running the drill yelled at me, and for a split second I was p*ssed, (I don't like being yelled at). Then my brain kicked in, fortunately before my mouth, and I backed away. I was wrong, he was right. Just that simple.

 

[dustoff22]

Different scenario but great similarity..........I spent the better part of my military flying career as a helicopter instructor pilot, everything from teaching never-flown-before students to experienced pilots. Those who made excuses for f-ups either washed out of the program or became mediocre pilots. Those who rogered their mistakes obviously took the bull by the horns and endeavored to improve. Whether learning to handle a weapon or a helicopter or any task requiring a learning curve, there's not a great deal of difference regarding the attitude required to learn properly. Roger that!

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Roger that the **** up