Replacing factory AK handguard with another Russian one? - 922r

ThemBones

ThemBones

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Hello,
I have a brand new Saiga 5.45 and I'm not crazy about the cheap looking handguards that came with it. I was wondering if it's still 922r compliant if I only change the factory Izhmash handguards with another Russian made one? I'm assuming it would be compliant as long as Russian made...but would like to confirm from others more knowledgable about the topic than I. I just don't trust gray area laws (modifying sporting AK models, 922r, etc). Thanks.
 
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ThemBones said:
Hello,
I have a brand new Saiga 5.45 and I'm not crazy about the cheap looking handguards that came with it. I was wondering if it's still 922r compliant if I only change the factory Izhmash handguards with another Russian made one? I'm assuming it would be compliant as long as Russian made...but would like to confirm from others more knowledgable about the topic than I. I just don't trust gray area laws (modifying sporting AK models, 922r, etc). Thanks.
Click to expand...

You don't really understand 922r

If you don't touch the butt stock , your not turning a "sporting rifle" in to a super deadly aw...
Doesn't have to be Russian hand guards.
If you change the stock add a pistol grip and move the trigger then you would have to change other things to be 922.

Personally I think having "mill style" hand guards. With sporting rifle stock looks odd.
If you got a mill style thumb hole like a psl stock I think it would look better.

Also there's company's that make wood sets to replace the saiga plastic . I believe iron wood is one company.
 
warwickben said:
You don't really understand 922r

If you don't touch the butt stock , your not turning a "sporting rifle" in to a super deadly aw...
Doesn't have to be Russian hand guards.
If you change the stock add a pistol grip and move the trigger then you would have to change other things to be 922.

Personally I think having "mill style" hand guards. With sporting rifle stock looks odd.
If you got a mill style thumb hole like a psl stock I think it would look better.

Also there's company's that make wood sets to replace the saiga plastic . I believe iron wood is one company.
Click to expand...

No, I admit I don't understand all of it. I'm fairly new to shooting so I'm still learning. Thanks for the simple breakdown. Almost all of the scenarios I read about tend to deal with converting and changing out the stock with a grip, feed, etc. Then you got the Mass laws never mind the federal stuff.

I agree...the Saiga does look odd with only the handguard replaced and the generic buttstock. I'd like to replace the stock but I was confused if the "thumb hole" was viewed as altering the sporting configuration to other (922r trigger). But yes, changing the handguard and stock (anything that doesn't trigger 922r) with a U.S. one (I thought the U.S. made ones like Tapco looked pretty nice and cheap) would be ideal. Just trying to see what my options are and make sure I'm not getting in trouble and don't even know it. Thanks.
 
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ThemBones said:
No, I admit I don't understand all of it. I'm fairly new to shooting so I'm still learning. Thanks for the simple breakdown. Almost all of the scenarios I read about tend to deal with converting and changing out the stock with a grip, feed, etc. Then you got the Mass laws never mind the federal stuff.

I agree...the Saiga does look odd with only the handguard replaced and the generic buttstock. I'd like to replace the stock but I was confused if the "thumb hole" was viewed as altering the sporting configuration to other (922r trigger). But yes, changing the handguard and stock (anything that doesn't trigger 922r) with a U.S. one (I thought the U.S. made ones like Tapco looked pretty nice and cheap) would be ideal. Just trying to see what my options are and make sure I'm not getting in trouble and don't even know it. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Forgive me if I came off like a dick. I'm dealing with a splitting headache .
A thumb hole stock for a rifle doesn't make it non sporting. And you get around not triggering the awb .
You can get replacement stocks wood or plastic that are "sporting style". They even make a slide fire stock that's thumb hole.
Basically if you don't add a pistol grip your fine with 922r.
If you want to convert it just buy American
Furniture and trigger and you'll be legal for 922.
I forget if they have a bayo lug or threaded muzzle .
 
I wasn't sure at first either. But I noticed a lot of the online main arm sites say something to the effect of "manufactured in Russia or Izhmash product". Then I found this link off official Izhmash site which I think confirms (scroll to bottom) http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml. Looks like they're just spare parts to their U.S. imported "Tigr" version hunting rifle.
 
ThemBones said:
I wasn't sure at first either. But I noticed a lot of the online main arm sites say something to the effect of "manufactured in Russia or Izhmash product". Then I found this link off official Izhmash site which I think confirms (scroll to bottom) http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml. Looks like they're just spare parts to their U.S. imported "Tigr" version hunting rifle.
Click to expand...

The "tiger" is the civ version of the svd. 54r dmr rifle. Not based on the ak. They must just sell the stock for there Ak's for places like the USA where it hasn't been imported in 20 years .
 
I probably should've better explained my goal in the very beginning. I'm not interested in converting my Saiga at this time due to $ constraints. I simply wanted to change the handguards and the stock without 922r kicking in and caring about the forgeign parts count. Looking at your chart it appears the Saiga is imported with 17 foreign parts if I understand right. I guess what I was unclear of is what "triggers" 922r.

I think what I'm going to end up doing is modifying my Saiga to look exactly like this below (put the Izhmash Russian made "Dragunov" skeleton stock on, drill holes into the factory handguard). To me it wasn't clear if only putting a U.S. or foreign handguard "triggers" as fars as changing the "sporting" configuration. Also, I wasn't aware the RAA Dragunov is actually a Izhmash product that was imported on other hunting models so I didn't know it was unconverting option.

saiga_small.jpg
 
warwickben said:
Also there's company's that make wood sets to replace the saiga plastic . I believe iron wood is one company.
Click to expand...

and here i have izzy marked plastic furniture that i want to put ON an AK...... not my cobbled together Maadi though..... that looks good with it's beat up wood....
 
ThemBones said:
I guess what I was unclear of is what "triggers" 922r.

I think what I'm going to end up doing is modifying my Saiga to look exactly like this below (put the Izhmash Russian made "Dragunov" skeleton stock on, drill holes into the factory handguard). To me it wasn't clear if only putting a U.S. or foreign handguard "triggers" as fars as changing the "sporting" configuration. Also, I wasn't aware the RAA Dragunov is actually a Izhmash product that was imported on other hunting models so I didn't know it was unconverting option.

saiga_small.jpg
Click to expand...

I wouldn't count on the fact that that stock was imported on other hunting models to not trigger 922r. Even though the real Dragunov grip/stock configuration was slightly different, it is still derived from a "sniper rifle", not a "hunting rifle". If you're going to worry about 922r, do it right rather that hoping some LEO/FED/Judge/Jury see it your way. Otherwise, there's no point in discussing it on a public forum. Penalty for manufacturing is up to 10 years, and then another 10 for possession. That said, I highly doubt you'd ever get hung up on it unless you were already in a world of shit and they were heaping on everything they could. IANAL.

Question - If you were to ever get jambed up, do you want to bet 20 years of your life that that will pass the BATFE's "sporting purposes test"?
http://debrosselaw.com/publications/Import_Article.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_sniper_rifle

To the best of my understanding, triggering 922r has nothing to do with the origin of a part, it has everything to do with changing the configuration from one that has been approved for import, to a configuration that has not been approved for import. Complying with 922r has everything to do with the origin of the parts and not having more than 10 on the list that are imported. Again, IANAL.

If it were me, I'd assume changing to that stock would trigger 922r and I'd expect to get called out on it if I ever got picked up for anything where it would be brought in to play.
 
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dingbat said:
I wouldn't count on the fact that that stock was imported on other hunting models to not trigger 922r. Even though the real Dragunov grip/stock configuration was slightly different, it is still derived from a "sniper rifle", not a "hunting rifle". If you're going to worry about 922r, do it right rather that hoping some LEO/FED/Judge/Jury see it your way. Otherwise, there's no point in discussing it on a public forum. Penalty for manufacturing is up to 10 years, and then another 10 for possession. That said, I highly doubt you'd ever get hung up on it unless you were already in a world of shit and they were heaping on everything they could. IANAL.

http://debrosselaw.com/publications/Import_Article.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_sniper_rifle
Click to expand...

Dragunov is not a ak.

Putting a thumb hole stock on, that looks like a dragunov stock on a ak not gonna trigger 922r.
If you got a tiger , and put a dragunov stock on it to try to make it more like the mill spec you still wouldn't trigger 922r, cause a thumb hole stock isn't a pistol grip. They where imported this way at different times after 922 laws came about.


Also where the parts come from come into play is if you convert it to have a pistol grip then you just need to have enough American made parts .
 
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Eh...no one really seems care about 922r anymore,people see it as a "If get caught I was doing something wrong to begin with" deal.
 
warwickben said:
Dragunov is not a ak.

Putting a thumb hole stock on, that looks like a dragunov stock on a ak not gonna trigger 922r.
If you got a tiger , and put a dragunov stock on it to try to make it more like the mill spec you still wouldn't trigger 922r, cause a thumb hole stock isn't a pistol grip. They where imported this way at different times after 922 laws came about.
Click to expand...

I understand that, but you and I don't get to decide if it passes the sporting purposes test, the BATFE does. In the op's case, unless he's planing to ask them permission before he does it, that decision would come after he had been arrested (if that were to ever happen) and on trial. Their decision would affect no one but an individual who was already a scumbag in their eyes.

Read this and tell me if this is the sort of organization that would take the time to consider that it's nearly identical to a package that they did approve to help out one guy in handcuffs:

https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/april-1998-sporting-suitability-of-modified-semiautomatic-assault-rifles.pdf

Do you think their answer would be logical or politically motivated? Remember, these are the folks that made Chore-Boy and shoelaces illegal.


KMS said:
Eh...no one really seems care about 922r anymore,people see it as a "If get caught I was doing something wrong to begin with" deal.
Click to expand...

The op seems to care.

Honestly guys, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's something to get hung up about. Just trying to answer the guy's question.
 
dingbat said:
I understand that, but you and I don't get to decide if it passes the sporting purposes test, the BATFE does. In the op's case, unless he's planing to ask them permission before he does it, that decision would come after he had been arrested (if that were to ever happen) and on trial. Their decision would affect no one but an individual who was already a scumbag in their eyes.

Read this and tell me if this is the sort of organization that would take the time to consider that it's nearly identical to a package that they did approve to help out one guy in handcuffs:

https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/april-1998-sporting-suitability-of-modified-semiautomatic-assault-rifles.pdf

Do you think their answer would be logical or politically motivated? Remember, these are the folks that made Chore-Boy and shoelaces illegal.




The op seems to care.

Honestly guys, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's something to get hung up about. Just trying to answer the guy's question.
Click to expand...

I get what your saying . But your missing the fact they imported them with this stock. So the ATF has signed off on then already.

Also there's a few other ak varaints being imported with the same stock from china currently .
 
warwickben said:
I get what your saying . But your missing the fact they imported them with this stock. So the ATF has signed off on then already.

Also there's a few other ak varaints being imported with the same stock from china currently .
Click to expand...

Oh, I hear you, and I agree with you. I just don't have faith that the BATFE would. Admittedly, I don't know how they proceed with these things, but my suspicion is they would look at what configuration that specific, serialized, rifle was imported in and approach it as an individual case, rather than look first to see if it's configuration matched up with anything else they may have approved. I also suspect you'd get charged first, and then have to defend yourself hoping that they'd see it your way.

But anyway, I'm just feeling a little punchy today and arguing something irrelevant on the internet is scratching that itch.....so thanks.[smile]
 
dingbat said:
I understand that, but you and I don't get to decide if it passes the sporting purposes test, the BATFE does. In the op's case, unless he's planing to ask them permission before he does it, that decision would come after he had been arrested (if that were to ever happen) and on trial. Their decision would affect no one but an individual who was already a scumbag in their eyes.

Read this and tell me if this is the sort of organization that would take the time to consider that it's nearly identical to a package that they did approve to help out one guy in handcuffs:

https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/...-of-modified-semiautomatic-assault-rifles.pdf

Do you think their answer would be logical or politically motivated? Remember, these are the folks that made Chore-Boy and shoelaces illegal.




The op seems to care.

Honestly guys, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's something to get hung up about. Just trying to answer the guy's question.
Click to expand...

...which is exactly why I'm asking the question. My cautious approach thinking seems to be more in line with dingbat's. I certainly disagree with some of the gun laws in general, but I also question some of the 'gun enthusiast' quick interpretation of the law and just want to be in compliance. I'm not saying I think warwickben is wrong on the law and he certainly seems much more experienced with firearms than myself...it just seems to me a case like this has never come to light in Massachusetts that I'm aware of. Seems like a gray area that they could pursue if they really wanted and I don't trust Mass gray area laws. But on the other hand, is converting a Russian "sporting rifle" with American parts a much different scenario? You're still altering the imported version.

Anyhow, I got my "Dragunov" stock in yesterday from Centerfire Systems in Kentucky. It comes with some documentation with some sort of a Russian stamped seal....so it's definitely a Russian made product. Not that it matters but I can't fully wrap my hand around the "thumb hole" opening the same way you could a true vertical grip. My pinky and lower portion of hand is slightly off stock area. Doesn't seem any improvement vs the regular factory stock. It's my understanding the "Dragunov" was about improving cheek position for optics...not getting around the vertical grip issue???
 
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I was little wrong . If the mag is low cap , your fine with 922. Like single stack ak mags . But if it's been converted to double stack mags you'll have to replace other parts to be 922 . I miss read the ATF . Dope!!!!

It's a federal rule not mass btw.
 
ThemBones,

The fact that the stock is Russian means nothing other than it is imported and therefore counts against you if 922r comes in to play.

If you are concerned about 922r compliance, you want to replace foreign parts with U.S. made parts. Specifically:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

If your rifle does not pass the sporting purposes test, you may not have more than 10 of the parts above made outside the U.S. in order to be compliant with 922r.

IANAL.
 
warwickben said:
I was little wrong . If the mag is low cap , your fine with 922. Like single stack ak mags . But if it's been converted to double stack mags you'll have to replace other parts to be 922 . I miss read the ATF . Dope!!!!

It's a federal rule not mass btw.
Click to expand...


Hey Ben,

I think it's if it is capable of accepting hi-cap mags.

But the real issue is trying to make sense out of a law that makes no sense.[thinking]
 
dingbat said:
Hey Ben,

I think it's if it is capable of accepting hi-cap mags.
Click to expand...

Yeah it's why my psl And other guns get around it . there's only officially low cap mags for them. I don't know how saiga dose there's . If the mag well is setup for low cap or normal mags. I totally miss read the ATF letter lol .
 
My Saiga came double stack but it's a .308. Not sure how the 7.62x39's come.

When I did my conversion it ended up right on the line of 922r with the factory mag. If I want to be clearly in compliance I have to use U.S. made mags. Don't you feel safer knowing they're U.S. made rather than imports.[laugh]
 
dingbat said:
ThemBones,

The fact that the stock is Russian means nothing other than it is imported and therefore counts against you if 922r comes in to play.

If you are concerned about 922r compliance, you want to replace foreign parts with U.S. made parts. Specifically:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

If your rifle does not pass the sporting purposes test, you may not have more than 10 of the parts above made outside the U.S. in order to be compliant with 922r.

IANAL.
Click to expand...

In my opinion from what I'm reading, I believe it does pass the "sporting purpose test" because it doesn't alter the way it shoots. If the "thumb hole" (Dragunov) was viewed as a vertical grip then that may be different story. As stated previously, they already allowed the importation of "Tigr" hunting Russian rifles with the Dragunov stocks...so I think it stays in the "sporting" or "hunting" category.
 
Just got this email from the writer of this article http://www.ballistics101.com/saiga_7.62x39.php. He's answering my questions about Dragunov and hand guard. Seems to come to same conclusion as I did about Dragunov...but I guess he's probably not a lawyer either.

------------
Hi. Typically because the rifle is also available from the factory with that stock, it should not trigger 922r. However, an officer could define it as a pistol grip, and make lots of trouble simply because of lack of education. So to avoid it all together we installed the magazine lock. It is the same theory as the AR15. In order for it to be legal, with a pistol grip, the magazine must require a tool to be removed.

The hand guard is stock. I just made a pattern in Adobe Illustrator, printed it and drilled holes in it to help it cool a bit faster. I started with a 1/8” bit to keep the holes straight and then increased the size to my liking. I think they are about 7/16” or so.



Jeff | commander in chief
 
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ThemBones said:
Just got this email from the writer of this article http://www.ballistics101.com/saiga_7.62x39.php. He's answering my questions about Dragunov and hand guard. Seems to come to same conclusion as I did about Dragunov...but I guess he's probably not a lawyer either.

------------
Hi. Typically because the rifle is also available from the factory with that stock, it should not trigger 922r. However, an officer could define it as a pistol grip, and make lots of trouble simply because of lack of education. So to avoid it all together we installed the magazine lock. It is the same theory as the AR15. In order for it to be legal, with a pistol grip, the magazine must require a tool to be removed.

The hand guard is stock. I just made a pattern in Adobe Illustrator, printed it and drilled holes in it to help it cool a bit faster. I started with a 1/8” bit to keep the holes straight and then increased the size to my liking. I think they are about 7/16” or so.



Jeff | commander in chief
Click to expand...

He's from Cali so the pistol grip/mag lock thing is different from mass awb. So keep that in mind .
 
dingbat said:
I understand that, but you and I don't get to decide if it passes the sporting purposes test, the BATFE does. In the op's case, unless he's planing to ask them permission before he does it, that decision would come after he had been arrested (if that were to ever happen) and on trial. Their decision would affect no one but an individual who was already a scumbag in their eyes.

Read this and tell me if this is the sort of organization that would take the time to consider that it's nearly identical to a package that they did approve to help out one guy in handcuffs:

https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/...-of-modified-semiautomatic-assault-rifles.pdf

Do you think their answer would be logical or politically motivated? Remember, these are the folks that made Chore-Boy and shoelaces illegal.




The op seems to care.

Honestly guys, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's something to get hung up about. Just trying to answer the guy's question.
Click to expand...

I came across this ATF letter response http://www.dragunov.net/documents/BATFE_Letter_Tiger.pdf which I believe is the same question I had with my Saiga 5.45 (this is the Izhmash "Tigr" in this case) which is swapping a Russian factory stock with another Russian stock (Dragunov). Looks like proof enough to me and gels with what a lot of the Russian AK enthusiasts have been saying that 922 isn't triggered in this scenario.

However, I'm starting to think I should just convert the damn thing with U.S. parts since more people seem aware about 922 laws than swapping foreign parts with another foreign part. Not sure yet what I'll do.
 

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