Reloading 5.56.. slower velocity too whimpy?

[Gadsden]

Hey guys, need a reality check here.
As you can see on this thread I've been working up some load with some surplus WC-844. The results for the 5.56 were running round 200fps slower than I hoped out of a 20" barrel. While these were under mil-spec in powder and velocity, they were over published save loading charges (source: Lyman's reloading manual, QuickLoad, and Hodgen's website).

My question is this: If the rounds shoot accurately and reliably, is it best to just run with a lighter/slower load or should I push more towards the spec speed? Mil-spec rounds are all I have really shot, so that is all I have to compare to.

Thanks!

 

[bullseye]

If the wheel rolls, keep it rolling. 200 is not that significant of a drop, less than 10%. If your hitting Bullseye, keep hitting it. I've played around with a softer load with W748 and my kids liked it, they had quicker target acquisition on 2nd and 3rd shots.

 

[Tackdriver VillenTactical]

What is you need for the extra speed? If the load works right for your applications, use it.

One issue I would consider (one I ran into myself) is if you decide to use that same load in another gun. I have a 19.5 or 20 gr load (depending on the brass I use) that is great in one AR but is lousy in another. In my Bushy and Colt it works fine. In my Spike's and SSAR is doesn't have enough power to reliably cycle.

Dave

 

[PatMcD]

Nothing wrong with slower rds at shorter ranges (under 300yds). Accuracy is the biggest deciding factor. Once you get out to longer ranges, wind drift comes into play and you need to balance accuracy and speed (faster =less wind drift).

 

[Gadsden]

No real need for the extra velocity, other than trying to be near spec to keep zeroing simple between purchased and reloaded ammunition.

 

[Tackdriver VillenTactical]

e

No real need for the extra velocity, other than trying to be near spec to keep zeroing simple between purchased and reloaded ammunition.

As a side, do you find the ammo you can make with the same velocity will have the same poi as the NATO stuff? Not to say it can't, I do not know, but I did an experiment with 180 grain 30-06 factory ammo. All had similar bullet desings and velocities, but at 100 yards the groups on some stuff werw off by over 6" at 100 yds. IIRC, even stuff from the same manufacturer (Federal) but different product lines did not perform the same, with POI being about 5" off.

Dave

 

[Gadsden]

e

As a side, do you find the ammo you can make with the same velocity will have the same poi as the NATO stuff? Not to say it can't, I do not know, but I did an experiment with 180 grain 30-06 factory ammo. All had similar bullet desings and velocities, but at 100 yards the groups on some stuff werw off by over 6" at 100 yds. IIRC, even stuff from the same manufacturer (Federal) but different product lines did not perform the same, with POI being about 5" off.

Dave

That's a very good point.. even between lot numbers ammo can be very different. Goes back to Boston T. Party's quote of "Find a make and lot number of an ammo your rifle likes, then back up the truck and buy all you can!".

I definately need to do more research in that area.. I honestly could not tell you how one type of ammo stacks up against another in 5.56. I have done some (limited) research in that area with .308 match. I had a 4" difference between different ammo types out of my target rifle. Great groups with both, but the POI was drastically different. This was good to know, as I could simply write down the correction on the ammo box and make a quick adjustment on the scope and be in the same spot when switching between ammo types.

 

[wmass]

I've seen a noticeable difference. I'd have to pull out my old targets for .223 but can tell you the .308 I made last weekend were 3 inches lower than the factory loads at 100 yds. Factory was HSM BTHP Match 168gr. My reloads were Hornady BTHP Match 168gr. in Federal cases. According to the manufacturers #'s my loads were roughly 100 ft/s faster (I don't chrono. so I don't know for sure). Factory group was 5 in the bull, mine were 3" lower and could cover 6 with a quarter. Since I'm gonna shoot mostly reloads I am going to re-zero using them.

 

[Gadsden]

Resurrecting an old thread with new info/question:
I whipped up a batch of .223 77gr SMKs and 5.56 75gr rounds. As above, same thing is puzzling me with the WC844 powder I was using.

I was attempting to clone (or come close to) the Black Hills 77gr round which clocks out around 2750 FPS. According to my Lyman load manual, Hodgdon's online database, and Quick load I should be able to go between 21gr and 22.5 with no issues (Lyman manual actually says 25.0 MAX!).
All of the rounds I loaded up started showing signs of pressure, but was only running around 2500 FPS out of a 20" bbl.

.223, 77gr SBTHP
Powder: WC844, FC .223 Brass
21.5: 2472,2436
22.0: 2494,2480,2528,2389 (Primers starting to get flat..)
22.5: 2540,2467,2514,2451 (Obvious signs of high pressure, going no further!)

5.56 LC, 75gr BTHP
WC 844 powder
22.0: 2487,2437,2502,2486 (Primers starting to get flat..)
22.5: 2510,2452 (Obvious signs of high pressure, going no further!)

According to what I have read, these rounds should have been pushing around 2750... instead they are around 250 FPS slow with some seriously flat primers. Anything I'm doing wrong here, or is the powder just and odd lot and possibly possessed by the devil? I know I don't *need* the faster velocity, but I'm curious why it is not making the speed but getting the higher pressure.

 

[bpm990d]

Keep in mind that there is no loading data available. Loading data is for commercial canister grade powder. It's held to significantly different standards than military powder and WC844 is non-canister grade powder. The good people at Lake City Army Ammunition plant established their own appropriate charge based on working up a load for that particular lot of powder.

You just need to do the same thing that they did, but without all the fancy pressure test equipment. The problem with surplus powder that may be takedown powder, is that the powder is going to be a mish mash of powder based on the quality of the lot control that they military used. I have seen surplus ball powder, with powder that is clearly extruded. How did that happen, you ask? Well a couple of cases of ammo loaded with something else just happened to get mixed in with the stuff that was being pulled. Woops.

The other thing is that it could have been powder that was rejected for failure to produce the proper velocity during testing, and was therefore sold off to get rid of it.

Each jug of powder is a story unto itself and the same thing goes doubly for surplus powder. They are all a little different and the book only shows how their lot of powder preformed with all the other components that were used in their rifle the day of testing. None of that really applies to your lot of powder and rifle.

Unless you are doing something specific where you need that extra 200 fps, don't worry about it unless it won't function.

HTH,

B

 

[EddieCoyle]

You know that Lyman uses a 24" barrel for their testing, right?

 

[EddieCoyle]

Keep in mind that there is no loading data available. Loading data is for commercial canister grade powder. It's held to significantly different standards than military powder and WC844 is non-canister grade powder. The good people at Lake City Army Ammunition plant established their own appropriate charge based on working up a load for that particular lot of powder.

You just need to do the same thing that they did, but without all the fancy pressure test equipment. The problem with surplus powder that may be takedown powder, is that the powder is going to be a mish mash of powder based on the quality of the lot control that they military used. I have seen surplus ball powder, with powder that is clearly extruded. How did that happen, you ask? Well a couple of cases of ammo loaded with something else just happened to get mixed in with the stuff that was being pulled. Woops.

The other thing is that it could have been powder that was rejected for failure to produce the proper velocity during testing, and was therefore sold off to get rid of it.

Each jug of powder is a story unto itself and the same thing goes doubly for surplus powder. They are all a little different and the book only shows how their lot of powder preformed with all the other components that were used in their rifle the day of testing. None of that really applies to your lot of powder and rifle.

Unless you are doing something specific where you need that extra 200 fps, don't worry about it unless it won't function.

HTH,

B

All this.

I've found friggin bullets in pull-down powder. You get what you pay for.

 

[Gadsden]

You know that Lyman uses a 24" barrel for their testing, right?

I had a suspicion of that could be a factor.. the manual says 24" test barrel and 20" AR-15 was used.. but the max on the 20" is still pushing 25gr @2821 so I ASSumed that speed was attainable. I figured that was a bit out there as it was way hotter than other data (such as Hodgden's site), so I obviously went low and worked up.

All this.

I've found friggin bullets in pull-down powder. You get what you pay for.

Yup, good info, thanks for the input to both of you guys. Lesson learned about the cheaper powder. The WC846 seemed to work as expected for .308 at least.

 

[Supermoto]

You could have a slow barrel. what barrel do you have?

 

[Gadsden]

You could have a slow barrel. what barrel do you have?

20", 1/8 twist.

 

[dcmdon]

Have you actually chrono'd commercial ammo to see what it does out of YOUR rifle?

 

[Gadsden]

Have you actually chrono'd commercial ammo to see what it does out of YOUR rifle?

Good point.. I have not tested 77gr... had a hard time finding it. That has been on the to-do list.. gives me an excuse to order some.

 

[dcmdon]

I wouldn't give it another thought until I did that.

 

[cekim]

I wouldn't give it another thought until I did that.

Who needs a chrono, just keep adding powder until you blow out the primer.


(disclaimer: do not just keep adding powder until you blow out the primer - that is a very bad idea...)

 

[inerlogic]

FWIW (which isn't much admittedly...) commercial .223 in my bolt action lands all over the target at 100 yards, 3-4" groups
hand loading, i didn't get near the published speeds, 'course hornady uses so 24" barrel in their temperature controlled underground [STRIKE=1]secret lair[/STRIKE] testing facility...
but i managed to get sub 1" groups rolling my own....

i have a jug of wc844 and some surplus 55gr projectiles coming this thursday so... we'll see how testing that goes.....

 

[dcmdon]

Where did you get the bullets? Were they pulled?

 

[Gadsden]

Where did you get the bullets? Were they pulled?

Factory new from wideners.

Who needs a chrono, just keep adding powder until you blow out the primer.

(disclaimer: do not just keep adding powder until you blow out the primer - that is a very bad idea...)

There is still room in the casing.. so why not?
Agreed, it was rather foolish to trust the loading data vs. actual testing with my rifle and factory rounds.