Recent Supreme Court decision on 2nd Amendment

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I saw this provocative op-ed in the NY Times suggesting that the court's decision on gun ownership will quickly become irrelevant because of the development of non-lethal self-defense technologies. The gist is that future state laws will prohibit the use of deadly force in self-defense because effective, non-lethal means such as Tasers are a readily-available alternative. I've posted the entire article below.

July 2, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
Shoot to Stun
By PAUL H. ROBINSON
Philadelphia

A NARROWLY divided Supreme Court ruled last week that the Second Amendment gives Americans the right to keep a loaded gun at home for their personal use. Presumably, citizens can use these weapons to defend themselves from intruders. But given the growing effectiveness and availability of less lethal weapons, it is likely that state laws will increasingly keep people from actually using their guns for self-defense.

The states impose carefully defined limitations on the use of deadly force in self-defense. (These rules are fairly uniform, state to state; most are based on the American Law Institute’s Model Penal Code of 1962.) A person may use only as much force as is “immediately necessary.” If a less lethal means of defense is available, the use of deadly force is illegal. Firearms are by law deadly force. (The police are given somewhat greater authority to use force, even aggressive force.)

Guns have been considered a primary weapon for self-defense. But now there are nonlethal alternatives — some not yet on the market — that can quickly disable an attacker even more reliably than a firearm can.

The best known of these are Tasers, handgun-shaped devices that fire a dart that delivers a painful electrical shock. A hit from a Taser causes an instant muscular spasm that can disable any attacker, no matter how determined. And the Taser works no matter where on the attacker’s body the dart hits. A bullet, in contrast, instantly disables only if it hits a couple of vulnerable spots, like the space between the eyes. A shot to the arm, the leg or even the torso may not stop an attacker.

A Taser works only within a limited distance, up to 35 feet for advanced models. But most firearm confrontations are at less than 10 feet. More important, the legal limitations on self-defense typically do not allow use of force at a distance. Defensive force is considered “immediately necessary” only when the defender can wait no longer, when the threat is “imminent.”

Newer kinds of hand-held weapons that are less lethal than guns — many already in prototype — may be even more effective than Tasers. These include light lasers, designed to blind temporarily, and microwave beams that instantly cause the skin to feel as if it is on fire, but cause no lasting harm.

Of course, anyone who uses a gun in self-defense may argue that he would have used a less lethal weapon if he had had one at hand, but there was only the firearm. The problem with this argument is that the limited option is the person’s choice, and the law may not be blind to that choice.

If you are a surgeon and you leave your glasses behind on the way to the operating room, then botch a delicate procedure, you can’t convince a judge that the resulting death wasn’t your fault because you couldn’t see well. If, on your way to confront an intruder, you choose your gun rather than your more effective but less lethal weapon, you can hardly complain later about your limited options.

Similarly, when a person shops for a weapon of self-defense, anticipating some day a confrontation with an attacker, his choice of a gun over something less lethal but more effective is a choice to limit his options in a confrontation.

Should we worry that by expecting people to use only nonlethal weapons in self-defense we would sacrifice our personal autonomy and safety? No. On the contrary, personal autonomy would be even more vigilantly protected.

The reason for this is a second limitation on the use of defensive force, what might be called the “proportionality” requirement. Typically, a defender can lawfully use deadly force only to prevent death, rape, kidnapping or bodily injury serious enough to cause long-term loss or impairment of a body part or organ. But a nondeadly weapon can be used to defend against any threat of unlawful force.

As effective less-than-lethal weapons proliferate, the laws of self-defense may ultimately relegate last week’s court decision to the status of an odd little opinion, one that works mainly to ensure some special constitutional status for gunpowder technology. Gun collectors will be fond of it, but for most of society, it will have little practical effect.

Paul H. Robinson, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, is the author, most recently, of “Law Without Justice: Why Criminal Law Doesn’t Give People What They Deserve.”
 
Newer kinds of hand-held weapons that are less lethal than guns — many already in prototype — may be even more effective than Tasers. These include light lasers, designed to blind temporarily, and microwave beams that instantly cause the skin to feel as if it is on fire, but cause no lasting harm.
Yes: We all drive around in Humvees and blast our attackers with infrared radiation all the time. The particle weapons are RIGHT around the corner... Ass hat!


Should we worry that by expecting people to use only nonlethal weapons in self-defense we would sacrifice our personal autonomy and safety? No. On the contrary, personal autonomy would be even more vigilantly protected.

The reason for this is a second limitation on the use of defensive force, what might be called the “proportionality” requirement. Typically, a defender can lawfully use deadly force only to prevent death, rape, kidnapping or bodily injury serious enough to cause long-term loss or impairment of a body part or organ. But a nondeadly weapon can be used to defend against any threat of unlawful force.
Yea....right. So, we are now saying that the attacker, who is willing to take my life, has more rights than I do to defend myself (when they are willing to break the laws)? Never bring a taser to a gun fight...


As effective less-than-lethal weapons proliferate, the laws of self-defense may ultimately relegate last week’s court decision to the status of an odd little opinion, one that works mainly to ensure some special constitutional status for gunpowder technology. Gun collectors will be fond of it, but for most of society, it will have little practical effect.

Paul H. Robinson, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, is the author, most recently, of “Law Without Justice: Why Criminal Law Doesn’t Give People What They Deserve.”

Paul, you LOST! Oh yea, less than lethal SUCKS, and I would rather be dealing with a would-be attacker as a corpse rather than a plaintiff in a suit for causing their central nervous system "irreparable harm" by hitting them with a taser. Thanks, but I am not going to use that, and the Second Amendment applies to all weapons available in today's society...
 
I believe Tasers are illegal for us mere citizens here in Mass. to possess. See M.G.L. Ch. 140 Sec. 131J

Section 131J: No person shall possess a portable device or weapon from which an electrical current, impulse, wave or beam may be directed, which current, impulse, wave or beam is designed to incapacitate temporarily, injure or kill, except: (1) a federal, state or municipal law enforcement officer, or member of a special reaction team in a state prison or designated special operations or tactical team in a county correctional facility, acting in the discharge of his official duties who has completed a training course approved by the secretary of public safety in the use of such a devise or weapon designed to incapacitate temporarily; or (2) a supplier of such devices or weapons designed to incapacitate temporarily, if possession of the device or weapon is necessary to the supply or sale of the device or weapon within the scope of such sale or supply enterprise. No person shall sell or offer for sale such device or weapon, except to federal, state or municipal law enforcement agencies. A device or weapon sold under this section shall include a mechanism for tracking the number of times the device or weapon has been fired. The secretary of public safety shall adopt regulations governing who may sell or offer to sell such devices or weapons in the commonwealth and governing law enforcement training on the appropriate use of portable electrical weapons.

Whoever violates this section shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 or by imprisonment in the house of correction for not less than 6 months nor more than 21/2 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant any person whom he has probable cause to believe has violated this section.


In any case, the Heller case is now a precedential decision. As a law professor, this guy should know that. Most law professors are ultra liberal whackos anyway.

I like how he summed up the decision as "one that works mainly to ensure some special constitutional status for gunpowder technology."
 
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I believe Tasers are illegal for us mere citizens here in Mass. to possess.

In any case, the Heller case is now a precedential decision. As a law professor, this guy should know that. Most law professors are ultra liberal whackos anyway.

I like how he summed up the decision as one that works mainly to ensure some special constitutional status for gunpowder technology."

I'm surprised that mass. actually allows you guys/gals to own electric toothbrushes!
 
I'm surprised that mass. actually allows you guys/gals to own electric toothbrushes!

Only the non-lethal electric tooth brushes are legal. We wouldn't want to actually harm the bacteria in our mouths. That would be wrong. I believe you need at least a Class B LTC for one as well. They also are subject to inspection by the local electrical inspector.
 
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Only the non-lethal electric tooth brushes are legal. We wouldn't want to actually harm the bacteria in our mouths. That would be wrong. I believe you need at least a Class B LTC for one as well. They also are subject to inspection by the local electrical inspector.

HAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAA

Thanks for the laugh, I needed it this morning!
 
Less than lethal weapons for self-defense will work only when Police decide that is all they need -- that is, when we can guarentee that no attacker could possibly obtain a gun.

Another angle that seems not to be mentioned: How do you keep these weapons from those who want to rob liquor stores or convenience stores? If a thug can be sure that he can incapacitate a clerk and not face aggravated A&B charges we'll see more of these robberies.
 
Somehow I feel that less-than-lethal alternatives such as tasers and pepper-spray or whatever aren't going to do anyone a damn bit of good if we have to use the 2nd Amendment for its actual intended purpose, not just self-defense.
 
the other part that they seem to miss in this whole article... is the fact that even the court pointed out... that the second is not just for personal protection from criminals.

It also allows THE PEOPLE to keep and bare arms agianst a tyranical government.

tell me how well a taser will hold up against an m16.

what a tool.
 
People who vouch or are paid for opinions on topics to which they readily know nothing about should immediately be discredited.

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I think most of us understand and follow the rule of the firearm being the last resort in a situation, discounting property laws and the recent Texas case.

The last resort in a situation that is life threatening is likely not going to be anything less than lethal since the inertia of the situation has already demanded one to use equal or overwhelming deadly force in response.

Let this idiot hand out Twinkies and sing Kumbaya to his unwanted 3:00 AM guests, perhaps his less than lethal speech will even thwart the attempted rape or killing of he and his loved ones. Who knows? The perpetrator may even sit with him and sing until the authorities arrive!
 
Only the non-lethal electric tooth brushes are legal. We wouldn't want to actually harm the bacteria in our mouths. That would be wrong. I believe you need at least a Class B LTC for one as well. They also are subject to inspection by the local electrical inspector.


Baystatesucks, you're wrong about that. According to MGL 131, if you only have a Class B toothbrush license, you MUST remove the bristles, and the toothbrush has to have a plug in cord, it can't be battery powered. It must also be locked at night.
 
Cool!

So how does a Taser handle multiple attackers?

Ask the perps to hold hands before you zap the one in the middle? [laugh] [rolleyes]

Not only are these things illegal in MA, the law for any PD to deploy requires so much training, paperwork and accountability that very few PDs have actually taken steps to deploy them in MA.
 
Baystatesucks, you're wrong about that. According to MGL 131, if you only have a Class B toothbrush license, you MUST remove the bristles, and the toothbrush has to have a plug in cord, it can't be battery powered. It must also be locked at night.

Thank you for the corrections.

I have a Class A toothbrush and not a Class B. For Class A, it requires a bristle lock to render the bristles inoperable. The Class A also permits me to use a tooth brush that has been deemed to be a "high capacity brushing device," where the number of bristles exceeds ten.

The big downside is the bristles had to be legally possessed prior to 1994. So, they are getting a bit green now. Anyone want to trade?
 
For those with dentures, (Food In Dentures) an FID is needed.
Aren't we all already prepared to use non-lethal means to protect ourselves? Of course. Using a firearm is the last used means of self defense. This professor believes that Tasers should replace firearms? He needs more time to think it through.
Best Regards.
 
How effective are tasers, lasers, and microvawes against an ARMED attaker?

Tasers actually are pretty effective, but their downside is they depend on a lot of things to line up. First, it's pretty useless beyond a particular distance where a firearm can reach. Secondly, if their are multiple people its useless because it only is good for one guy at a time. They'll have to wait their turn.
 
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