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Rare Breed Triggers: The next version of binary type triggers

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Let me get this straight... so a regular trigger resets with force x, which by itself does not push the AR into ATF machine gun territory.

This weird new trigger resets with force x+k, which some people are saying makes it a machine gun.

What exact amount of force between x and x+k is the dividing line between semi-auto and "machine gun?"
Last time I remember this coming up it was as follows:

Normal:
User applies force X to the trigger, firmly maitains contact while gun fires. user removes force x from the trigger and the trigger resets for next actuation.

Bump Stock-
User applies force x to the trigger gun recoils to shoulder where force x gets removed from trigger, gun springs back off shoulder and re-applies force x to actuate the trigger.

Binary:
User applies force x to the trigger, firmly maintains contact while gun fires. User removes force X from the trigger and the gun resets then fires.

RBT:
User applies force X to the trigger, firmly maintains contact while gun fires. Gun resets with greater force Y applied through reset and then releases force Y allowing force X, which has never been removed from the load of the system (just has been re-balanced) to be applied again.

There's an old ruling for a trigger style (I think) out of the 80's. I can't remember the trigger name though, maybe something can help out: fire(something) or something(fire)? It was a bit more pricey than the DIAS

So, I guess I was thinking of the hellfire trigger, and to my surprise it's not banned?
 
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teamRR

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But there is the matter of requiring a full auto bolt carrier - not a MG in and of itself ..... yet.

I'm sure you know but most BCG's on the market are that design. Basically it is just the standard cut.

It would make sense at this point if manufacturers stopped using "full auto" describing them as it does nothing but cause confusion. There are some out there though, Ruger is the only one I have seen lately, who make different cuts but in that case they chose neither the standard "full auto" or "semi auto" cut and did something different, in between, for unknown reasons :)..

On an aside, so does Fostech though. That must be how the trigger "knows" it's back in battery.
 

SKumar

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Wow this is really skirting the lines. The third hole being essential to the mechanism is the deciding point. Is that an auto sear or not?

MGs are cool, but until ammo is dirt cheap again, I'm slow-firing for a while.
 
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What exact amount of force between x and x+k is the dividing line between semi-auto and "machine gun?"
The practical test would be "any trigger that does not require the user to reduce pressure between pulls".

These guys are playing a game they will lose. And the costume on the attorney is almost comical.
 
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Wow this is really skirting the lines. The third hole being essential to the mechanism is the deciding point. Is that an auto sear or not?

MGs are cool, but until ammo is dirt cheap again, I'm slow-firing for a while.

There are several triggers out there (even excluding things like the fostech echo) that have extra holes.

The receivers can't have holes because that makes them readily convertible to a MG, after all, there's no other reason for that third hole.
Trigger packages don't have the same third hole requirement, however, trigger packs can't allow a gun to be fully automatic, if they do they'd be machine guns in their own right.
 

pastera

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Its mode of action is essentially the same as a full auto trigger.
Hard pass on this thing - they pretty much admit that it is trouble with the disclaimer.
 
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Their big concern is making sure their corporate veil is impenetrable to they won't cough up personal assets when the surrender order is issued.

The lawyer is an ass for not including a briefing on the risk of an adverse BATFE ruling similar to the bump stock one. I rank him up there with attorneys who plead out MA misdefelonies without advising the defendant as to the pesky federal PP issue.

I also find the ethics of the company selling without disclosing this risk to be rather questionable. Sort of like selling a drug without advising the patient of a high probability side effect.

But he's rocking that awesome vest that matches the law books in the background even if it does look like something
a 19th century riverboat gambler would wear or it was fashioned from old remnants of his grandmothers dining room
drapes.

vest.jpg
 

Spartan65

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Has this been rubber stamped by the ATF? Wouldn’t it have to be for them to be selling it as a trigger pack. That disclaimer tells me buy at your own risk. Seems sketchy.
 
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If they could get bump stocks banned thru fiat, then these things haven't got a snowball's chance. $400? I gotta believe this is some massive entrapment scheme cooked up by the ATF and they're gonna the $400 to fund future operations that are "off the books" while the idiots who buy this will wind up in Supermax learning where to hide a packet of ass lube when it's shower time.
 
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Yes there is. From the cartoon they showed, it appears that the trigger FORCEFULLY resets between each round. Just keep pulling and it'll automatically keep firing. They are playing games with that whole single trigger pull thing and the legality of it all.

A binary trigger fires when you pull the trigger. And then again on release. It's a forced action by the shooter. If you continue (attempt to) to hold the trigger back on a binary trigger, it does not continue to fire. This bad boy definitely does that. The harder you pull, the more assured you are that you are STILL firing it.
100 percent. Just because the trigger forces your finger forwards and a separate mechanical pull technically takes place, the law will be interpreted as to say that it's not just a mechanical action that makes a single trigger pull full auto, but also a physical one.

Which is scary because that then opens the door up to binary triggers.

I don't know what it's going to take for people to realize that machine guns are the third rail of gun ownership. The more the industry brings attention to the ease of which a semi auto firearm can simulate a machine gun, the more it jeopardizes semi auto guns themselves.

As for that lawyer in the video, the guy is a fugging lawyer, like, he gets paid to lie for a living. His opinion doesn't mean shit, the NFA, GCA, and other laws may have language that defines what a machine gun is, but the ATF interprets what a machine gun is and the courts have done nothing to restrict their ability in that regard because the judiciary is just as Deep State as the ATF is.

People seem to refuse to believe that we live under enemy occupation by Team Deep State. The ATF loves to play the game because Team Deep State is undefeated when it comes to machine guns because they know that the Head Coach MSM/Fake News is gonna scream about the children and White Supremacists to make fellow teammates on SCOTUS queesy thinking they'll get yelled at by the coach for allowing machine guns to murder more children in classrooms across America.
 

Dennis in MA

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Hmmm. First, binary triggers require a conscious thought to fire teh second shot. Or CAN require a conscious thought. Not so with this oddity.

Second - I can't see if we didn't have this where the anti-gunners would be somehow satisfied with the status quo. 30 caliber cliprounds second guy. Shoulder thing that goes up gal. Joltin Joe and the AWB94. They haven't changed.
 
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If they could get bump stocks banned thru fiat, then these things haven't got a snowball's chance. $400? I gotta believe this is some massive entrapment scheme cooked up by the ATF and they're gonna the $400 to fund future operations that are "off the books" while the idiots who buy this will wind up in Supermax learning where to hide a packet of ass lube when it's shower time.
More probable there will be the standard "surrender it" order. Best bet if ordered to surrender is destroy, then turn in the remnants. That way, if the feds prosecute (unlikely under a "voluntary" surrender order), they will have to prove you possessed it before it was destroyed. Provided, of course, you STFU. As a bonus, you can't be charged with lying to the feds if you don't talk to them (Ask Martha Stewart and Billy Bulger to explain this).

Oh, and federal supermax (at least some facilities) has in-cell showers to enhance the isolation effect.
 

Thirwell1216

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A member on another board I frequent picked one up who lives down south. It works, but in a pistol he said he has to do some tweaking with it. It requires an M16 bolt carrier and heavy buffer:

20210105_192917-jpg.108002


View: https://youtu.be/v4lncq-1FXA


View: https://youtu.be/VrGflHK5dPY

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7QzGs6EXqI

A great video with a 9mm upper beltfed at the end:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuougs2GmGA
 
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I think we’re looking at the wrong pieces with stocks and triggers.
you know how they have Incredible Hulk hands? Why not make a Jerry Miculek finger?
 

allen-1

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Went with my son to the range this past weekend to check out the AR pistol he just built. It's a frankenbuilt, but he used some quality parts in it. The trigger's by Timney, and it surprised the hell out of both of us - it doubled. First time I thought I'd bumpfired it. Then I squeezed the trigger and held it in; when I released it, it fired again. Did the same thing for my son.

It's a drop in unit, and when I googled, apparently we're not the first to have that happen.

Brought it back to my house and swapped it out for a Larue MBT I had on the shelf. That Timney's going back to the manufacturer.
 

drgrant

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Went with my son to the range this past weekend to check out the AR pistol he just built. It's a frankenbuilt, but he used some quality parts in it. The trigger's by Timney, and it surprised the hell out of both of us - it doubled. First time I thought I'd bumpfired it. Then I squeezed the trigger and held it in; when I released it, it fired again. Did the same thing for my son.

It's a drop in unit, and when I googled, apparently we're not the first to have that happen.

Brought it back to my house and swapped it out for a Larue MBT I had on the shelf. That Timney's going back to the manufacturer.
Which timney was it?
 

Dennis in MA

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A member on another board I frequent picked one up who lives down south. It works, but in a pistol he said he has to do some tweaking with it. It requires an M16 bolt carrier and heavy buffer:

20210105_192917-jpg.108002


View: https://youtu.be/v4lncq-1FXA


View: https://youtu.be/VrGflHK5dPY

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7QzGs6EXqI

A great video with a 9mm upper beltfed at the end:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuougs2GmGA

Hmmm. The first videos, it LOOKS like if you hold the trigger hard enough, it won't "go." After watching ZZ Top run his, I think they are futzing with their trigger hold to make it do that. I guess it comes down to: If you hold the trigger back, will it force reset and fire again or can you overcome that action??? That, to me, is the key of is it full-auto or a bump-device of sorts.

I still see it getting banned.
 
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Went with my son to the range this past weekend to check out the AR pistol he just built. It's a frankenbuilt, but he used some quality parts in it. The trigger's by Timney, and it surprised the hell out of both of us - it doubled. First time I thought I'd bumpfired it. Then I squeezed the trigger and held it in; when I released it, it fired again. Did the same thing for my son.

It's a drop in unit, and when I googled, apparently we're not the first to have that happen.

Brought it back to my house and swapped it out for a Larue MBT I had on the shelf. That Timney's going back to the manufacturer.
Hmm, that’s interesting because I have read sporadic reports of that very same thing happening to a few people with CMC cartridge triggers. Those have been on the market for awhile. I don’t know if it is a QC issue or not but it seems like for most of them it developed the doubling problem over time as if something went out of spec with use. I think in fact Johnny’s Reloading Bench (YT) had that happen to him with a CMC about a 1+ yrs or so ago if I remember correctly.
 

allen-1

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Hmm, that’s interesting because I have read sporadic reports of that very same thing happening to a few people with CMC cartridge triggers. Those have been on the market for awhile. I don’t know if it is a QC issue or not but it seems like for most of them it developed the doubling problem over time as if something went out of spec with use. I think in fact Johnny’s Reloading Bench (YT) had that happen to him with a CMC about a 1+ yrs or so ago if I remember correctly.

This was a brand new build, with a brand new trigger.
 
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Piss poor timing for something like this, no? Who the hell wants to waste ammo on mag dumps when there's no ammo to be had?
 

Spartan65

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Piss poor timing for something like this, no? Who the hell wants to waste ammo on mag dumps when there's no ammo to be had?
This is a long game my man, a long game. Some things you just buy when you can get them because one day you won’t be able to anymore.

like they say in hunting, don’t pass up on the first day what you would be happy with on the last day.
 
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