R.I. COP KILLS FIREFIGHTER . . .

[pdm]

He was convicted of 2nd degree murder.
Also convicted of a gun charge, can't find it specifically.

That was my point. First degree murder, yeah, I figure you're gonna do life. 2nd degree, I figure you're going to do a nice long stretch, but life seems high, especially if he didn't have priors. But I don't know if he's eligible for parole at all either, so he could end up doing ten and out.

 

[Serapis]

There must be more to the story that came out in court. I'd like to know exactly what happened.

 

[M1911]

There must be more to the story that came out in court. I'd like to know exactly what happened.

Only one person alive really knows that.

 

[Realtor MA]

There must be more to the story that came out in court. I'd like to know exactly what happened.

An unarmed man was shot to death because kids were playing too close to a car. I figure that's enough of a story to get a guy life in prison.

He was carrying and decided to confront his neighbors. Bad idea!

 

[Serapis]

An unarmed man was shot to death because kids were playing too close to a car. I figure that's enough of a story to get a guy life in prison.

He was carrying and decided to confront his neighbors. Bad idea!

Don't get me wrong I fully agree with you, especially being a brother firefighter. Such a stupid senseless incident. I just wanted to know more than what the vague media had posted.

 

[Realtor MA]

Don't get me wrong I fully agree with you, especially being a brother firefighter. Such a stupid senseless incident. I just wanted to know more than what the vague media had posted.

I guess I misunderstood. And I agree with you. It would be interesting to know more of the details. I'm guessing maybe there were some confrontations in the past.

 

[RI_John]

When this incident happened, it really made me start thinking about guns & fistfights. I've determined for myself when I have access to a firearm, I will more than go out of my way to avoid any potential altercation, because if it escalates, then what? You can't go around thumping your chest if you're carrying. In fact, I contend you have to take shit you normally wouldn't. You have to let your ego go completely. Or I do anyhow. I have to let stuff roll off me and not escalate things like I used to.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting older and less stupid? Because even if I don't have a weapon, I should always assume the other guy does. Mouthing off and ratcheting up a verbal confrontation never ends well. Or usually doesn't end well anyhow.

 

[pdm]

An unarmed man was shot to death because kids were playing too close to a car. I figure that's enough of a story to get a guy life in prison.

He was carrying and decided to confront his neighbors. Bad idea!

That was my point, too. Sure, second degree by current judicial standards, and he gets 5-15 with good behavior. In an ideal world, he should have been executed for his crime immediately after sentencing. Which should only take 30 days or so.

That's the thing, why give him a life sentence if he's only going to do five/ten/20? I dunno, I don't like showy sentences that don't translate into that in practice.

 

[M1911]

I'm not defending the former trainee/rookie, but if he was getting beat down, the use of deadly force IS very justified. I can cite multiple cases where people have died from punches or kicks.

IANAL, nor have I carefully followed this case. So I don't know what the jury considered or didn't consider.

It is my understanding, that there are several possible issues. First, did the convict help precipitate the confrontation? If so, then it might have been considered mutual combat. If the incident is considered mutual combat, then you may not be able to claim self defense, even if turns very bad.

Second, from my notes at LFI-1, in a one-on-one fight against an unarmed attacker, it is typically very difficult to legally justify lethal force. While you are correct that some people have died from fists and feet, the vast majority of fistfights do not result in death. Lethal force is only justified if you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. Fistfights rarely rise to that level of risk.

There are exceptions, of course. Force of numbers -- say 3 against 1. Vast disparity in force, e.g., large differences in size and/or age. Male against female. An aggressor who you know has unusual capability -- e.g., Chuck Lidell says he's going to kill you as he raises his fists and moves forward towards you.

But in a garden variety fist fight you'll have a hard time legally justifying deadly force.

 

[Palladin]

from WPRI:

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_...olas_gianquitti_sentenced_for_murder_20090625


Gianquitti was given a life sentence for discharging a firearm while committing a violent crime. He also received 40 years in prison for second degree murder, and will be eligible for parole in 34 years.

Rhode Island Attorney General Patrick Lynch issued the following statement:

“When you roam around your home, patrolling your property like a vigilante with a gun on your hip, something bad is bound to happen,” Lynch said. “And it did, when in the midst of a child’s birthday celebration, a neighborhood menace became a neighborhood murderer. When this defendant gunned down Cranston Fire Lt. Jimmy Pagano, he forever robbed a truly good man’s wife, children, parents, other relatives, and friends, of the love and joy he so selflessly gave. He also robbed Jimmy’s brothers and sisters in public safety of a colleague thoroughly devoted to fulfilling the many demands of his profession.”

 

[GSG]

But in a garden variety fist fight you'll have a hard time legally justifying deadly force.

This seems like it was more of a home invasion than a fist fight.

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_...rations_continue_in_gianquitti_trial_20090331

Pagano then approached Gianquitti's house where they then argued. Pagano eventually punched Gianquitti. He says he then fell down the stairs and Pagano then came inside his house.

"I was down there and I didn't say nothing, he was just coming down fast. I reached for my side, I pulled my gun. I shot him," said Gianquitti.

Gianquitti's lawyer is calling it self defense but prosecutors say Gianquitti followed his victim outside only to shoot again.

It sounds like it was a good shoot until the shots he fired after the first few, much like the Oklahoma pharmacist.

There's more interesting reading on this here and here.

 

[pdm]

Gianquitti was given a life sentence for discharging a firearm while committing a violent crime. He also received 40 years in prison for second degree murder, and will be eligible for parole in 34 years.

Well that explains it. Although IMO a "life sentence" that includes parole isn't much of a life sentence.

 

[Erebus]

what about the IWNMIWTOAM defense? (It Was Not Me It Was The One Armed Man)

Don't forget the Chewbacca Defense.

 

[weekendracer]

IANAL, nor have I carefully followed this case. So I don't know what the jury considered or didn't consider.

It is my understanding, that there are several possible issues. First, did the convict help precipitate the confrontation? If so, then it might have been considered mutual combat. If the incident is considered mutual combat, then you may not be able to claim self defense, even if turns very bad.

Second, from my notes at LFI-1, in a one-on-one fight against an unarmed attacker, it is typically very difficult to legally justify lethal force. While you are correct that some people have died from fists and feet, the vast majority of fistfights do not result in death. Lethal force is only justified if you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. Fistfights rarely rise to that level of risk.

There are exceptions, of course. Force of numbers -- say 3 against 1. Vast disparity in force, e.g., large differences in size and/or age. Male against female. An aggressor who you know has unusual capability -- e.g., Chuck Lidell says he's going to kill you as he raises his fists and moves forward towards you.

But in a garden variety fist fight you'll have a hard time legally justifying deadly force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwolfe1
Sorry.....but a physical altercation doesn't pass the test in my book for the Judicious Use of Deadly Force. If another weapon had been involved, maybe.

ME:
I'm not defending the former trainee/rookie, but if he was getting beat down, the use of deadly force IS very justified. I can cite multiple cases where people have died from punches or kicks. If he had the weapon on him while the altercation was going on, he had to consider the availability of the weapon to the attacker if he was incapacitated. Remember when the UFC was outlawed after a guy died in Russia. New rules were implemented to bring it back.

I agree, they both should have walked away.


Re-read what I said. If you are losing the fight, you are open to grevious bodily harm if you are unable to defend yourself. I've taught use of force pertaining to federal LE. You do not have to wait until you are incapacitated to find out if the guy is going to stop. The post I responded to says one thing, I stated that his way of thinking may not always be the case.

Now, will a jury take the time to get the facts straight? Are there more facts besides a simple physical altercation? Probably. Remember that next time you find a way out of jury duty, some guy might get screwed by a jury of his 'peers' that were too dumb to get an excuse ready. I went to jury duty, but once informed of my profession, I was quickly dismissed.

 

[EFR]

A question for you Police Officers.

Do you hate it when a story mentions a "former Policeman" who served 18 years ago? Does it bother you as much as it bothers me when after 40 years I still see stories that begin, "Vietnam Veteran charged in shooting."

Shouldn't people be glad that a guy like this was a FORMER cop? Why do they have to mention it?

yes

 

[M1911]

Re-read what I said.

Always good advice. You might want to follow it yourself.

If you are losing the fight, you are open to grevious bodily harm if you are unable to defend yourself. I've taught use of force pertaining to federal LE. You do not have to wait until you are incapacitated to find out if the guy is going to stop.

The answer is, it depends.

If one guy is on top of the other and is pounding his head into the ground, that likely rises to the level of deadly force.

If two guys are taking a few swings at each other, it likely doesn't. The line between the two is neither fine nor bright. The fact that you might become incapacitated and he might not stop probably does not justify deadly force when he throws the first punch.

But, in general, in a man-to-man fight with an unarmed man, you are likely to have a difficult time justifying the use of deadly force.

And, finally, as a LEO acting in his official capacity, in practical effect the system likely grants you some leeway that it doesn't grant to a private citizen.

 

[RI_John]

If two guys are taking a few swings at each other, it likely doesn't. The line between the two is neither fine nor bright. The fact that you might become incapacitated and he might not stop probably does not justify deadly force when he throws the first punch.

I agree- If 2 adults CHOOSE to get into an unarmed fistfight and one of them is carrying and the guy carrying starts getting his ass kicked and then decides he needs to shoot the other guy to protect himself? Sorry, even if I were on the jury I wouldn't have a lot of sympathy for the guy carrying.

Please note I'm talking about a "road rage" incident, guys opting to leave a bar and "take it outside", or in this case, neighbors arguing about kids playing ball. In cases like that, if you later decide you don't like the beating you're getting, tough shit. Take it, because if you pull your weapon and kill the other guy, you deserve to go to jail.

Now, if you're minding your own business and someone jumps you and they're unarmed and they start beating you, different story. In that case, I personally, would feel that could certainly justify deadly force if you were seriously getting beat.

Just my opinion without a lot of law knowledge to back it up.

 

[Palladin]

I read the testimony of a 12yo neighbor who witnessed the shooting, says he was shot outside house. Doesn't match the perp's version at all. FF struck perp once at doorway, perp goes down, FF turns, prep fires twice from down position, 1st shot hits FF in lower back rising in his body hitting kidney then heart, dies in driveway. 2nd shot hits retaining wall. recovered brass OUTSIDE house, 2nd slug lands in driveway.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/GIANQUITTI_HEARING_06-03-08_NSAC840_v23.38e855f.html

 

[Friday]

Here's another theory, very plausible for a jury of 12 Rhode Islanders

He had a gun.

He shot the guy.


Guns are Bad, so he must be guilty.....

 

[TomH]

from WPRI:
“When you roam around your home, patrolling your property like a vigilante with a gun on your hip, something bad is bound to happen,” Lynch said. “And it did, when in the midst of a child’s birthday celebration, a neighborhood menace became a neighborhood murderer. When this defendant gunned down Cranston Fire Lt. Jimmy Pagano, he forever robbed a truly good man’s wife, children, parents, other relatives, and friends, of the love and joy he so selflessly gave. He also robbed Jimmy’s brothers and sisters in public safety of a colleague thoroughly devoted to fulfilling the many demands of his profession.”

The anti-gun stance of this General Attorney is pretty obvious. Having a gun on your hip does not make you a "vigilante".

That said I think this guy got what he deserved. Just wish they didn't have to put the anti-spin on it.

 

[terraformer]

That's a pretty hefty sentence.

It is considering that most murders walk in 10-20 years. So why is this guy different? Not that I mind him in the can for that long but I mind an unequal application of the law in a big way.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The anti-gun stance of this General Attorney is pretty obvious.

Interestingly enough, he personally signs the RI carry permits issued through the AG's office.

 

[ooglassoo]

Thoughts an prayer to the Firefighters family. I hope that douche bag likes his new uniform.

 

[M1911]

Interestingly enough, he personally signs the RI carry permits issued through the AG's office.

Are they still almost impossible to get?

 

[RI_John]

Are they still almost impossible to get?

AG permits? yes.

 

[GSG]

I read the testimony of a 12yo neighbor who witnessed the shooting, says he was shot outside house. Doesn't match the perp's version at all. FF struck perp once at doorway, perp goes down, FF turns, prep fires twice from down position, 1st shot hits FF in lower back rising in his body hitting kidney then heart, dies in driveway. 2nd shot hits retaining wall. recovered brass OUTSIDE house, 2nd slug lands in driveway.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/GIANQUITTI_HEARING_06-03-08_NSAC840_v23.38e855f.html

Ahh, that puts a different light on things.